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Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion?

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Saying that they are usually the victims, is on topic. Debating about their beliefs, is not.
Thanks for clarifying. Good reminder for me. That's my major lesson "I do not need to defend myself or my Religion", no need to explain myself
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Thanks for clarifying. Good reminder for me. That's my major lesson "I do not need to defend myself or my Religion", no need to explain myself
I’m learning some lessons from this too. One is not to report the first post that looks like jabbing and stabbing to me, or the first defensive reaction from any one person. Only report it if it starts flooding the thread. Another is that it is not the jabbing and stabbing alone that floods the thread. I’ve seen that when I ignore it, it rarely continues for more than three posts.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I’m learning some lessons from this too. One is not to report the first post that looks like jabbing and stabbing to me, or the first defensive reaction from any one person. Only report it if it starts flooding the thread. Another is that it is not the jabbing and stabbing alone that floods the thread. I’ve seen that when I ignore it, it rarely continues for more than three posts.
I think it's good that we talk about these feelings/things. The better we communicate with each other the less we (sub)consciously stab each other.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I think it's good that we talk about these feelings/things. The better we communicate with each other the less we (sub)consciously stab each other.
You’ve called my attention to an issue which I think is very important and very much on topic in this thread: people posting about their beliefs when those beliefs disparage or vilify the beliefs of others. I can’t think of anyone debating about religion in these forums who isn’t disparaging or vilifying some other people’s beliefs. Can you? Incidentally, I’m disparaging and vilifying all beliefs, equally.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Here’s another example of a thread being flooded with off-topic debating about a group or category, this time a category of religions. Again in this example it starts with jabbing and stabbing:

That post was on topic, but with a little bit of jabbing and stabbing. Then from a direction that that I never would have expected, this defensive reaction:

That starts an off-topic debate flooding the thread:








The only way that I see for that debate to be on topic in this thread is as an illustration of what I’m talking about.

If someone accuses another of saying something they didn't, do you not expect one to post a rebuttal?

A member took my direct response to your OP and (whether your perceive it as a jab or stab or whatever; it was simply my observation) insinuated that I was saying that religions that proselytize are asinine. That was a straw man, as I never made such an assertion. The poster then went on to make some inaccurate assessments of my worldview, which I corrected. I then steered the thread back in the direction of the OP by asking the poster if he had anything that he wanted to discuss that was actually related to my response in the OP.

Though you may perceive this as off-topic, it was based on the course of discussion, and actually demonstrated the topic of the thread. Was there a slight derail? Probably, but it was squashed by me after setting the poster straight on a misconception about my views. Hardly something worth reporting.

Speaking of reporting, your posts here about reporting others are likely more off topic than anything other posts ITT. And, as I see it, reporting people who participate in your threads and then telling people you did so is one of the quickest ways to get people to not participate in threads you create or engage in discussion with you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
My topic in this thread is discussions being flooded with off topic debating about some group or category of people, calling attention to someone posting in the thread as one of them. So far I see 21 out of 68 posts in this thread as examples of that.
When you start a thread it belongs to everyone, not just the one who started it. There will be lots of banter and chit chat between participants. Some of it will be directly related to the OP. Sometimes there are digressions. Best to roll with it and accept the diverse nature of the participants as well as their responses.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing?
I'll do that. But only if their arguments have a religious foundation. If they use religious beliefs as premises.

When someone gives an argument for/against something, it consists of a few premises (explicit or implicit) followed by a conclusion. When you disagree with that conclusion, it's either because you feel like it doesn't logically follow from the premises, or because you disagree with the premises. If the latter, the counter argument will focus on breaking down the premises.

When those premises happen to be religious beliefs or flow from such beliefs, it seems rather inevitable that the topic of discussion shifts to that religion.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I think it's good that we talk about these feelings/things. The better we communicate with each other the less we (sub)consciously stab each other.
You’ve called my attention to an issue that matters a lot to me, and which I see as very much on topic. Sometimes people see and feel some other people’s beliefs as stabbing and jabbing at them and their beliefs. I want to discuss that, but it might be for another thread. I thought that you said that what I’m discussing in this thread doesn’t happen to you. Do people sometimes call attention to your religion, or to your identity, and start jabbing and stabbing at it, in threads where that is not the topic?
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
There might be some confusion at this point about what I wanted to discuss. First I’ll review what I’ve been learning to do about it when I see it happening: If I want to counteract some misunderstanding or misinformation that has been posted off topic in a thread, I will not do it in that thread. I will find or start another thread, where my responses to the misunderstandings or misinformation will be on topic. If I think that there’s a reportable offense, I might report it. Apart from those two actions, I will ignore all jabbing and stabbing at me and my religion and not respond to it at all, not even to object to it or to say that I reported it.

I already have the answers that I was looking for, but for anyone who wants to know, I had two questions in mind:
- Does anyone ever see people naming your religion and jabbing and stabbing at it, in threads where you have not mentioned the name of your religion?
- Does that happen more with some religions than with others?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There might be some confusion at this point about what I wanted to discuss. First I’ll review what I’ve been learning to do about it when I see it happening: If I want to counteract some misunderstanding or misinformation that has been posted off topic in a thread, I will not do it in that thread. I will find or start another thread, where my responses to the misunderstandings or misinformation will be on topic. If I think that there’s a reportable offense, I might report it. Apart from those two actions, I will ignore all jabbing and stabbing at me and my religion and not respond to it at all, not even to object to it or to say that I reported it.

I already have the answers that I was looking for, but for anyone who wants to know, I had two questions in mind:
- Does anyone ever see people naming your religion and jabbing and stabbing at it, in threads where you have not mentioned the name of your religion?
- Does that happen more with some religions tgan with others?

Can you give an example of a thread or discussion where someone completely out of the blue starting ranting or talking about the religion of one of the people involved in the discussion, for no apparant reason?

Imo, this almost never happens.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I can’t think of anyone debating about religion in these forums who isn’t disparaging or vilifying some other people’s beliefs. Can you?
Short version:
I can think of one, but I can't look in the member's mind. Maybe he disparages other people's beliefs in his mind. But trying to overcome is good

Longer version:
It's my greatest challenge to overcome "disparaging other people's beliefs". Being around same believers the thought not even arises. Coming to RF with such diverse views, judgmental thoughts pop up faster than I can even follow. I decided:I better stay on RF until judgmental thoughts stop
(What makes it more tricky is the misreading, misinterpretation that happens easily. So not to belittle takes a lot of effort. I am still learning.)

My belief system tells me that any (non) faith can help one reach his goal. So my belief system does not disparage other's belief, and makes it easier for me not to disparage. But I am still having criticizing thoughts popping up, so I did not reach that goal yet. It's hard work.

a) A belief system I don't agree with, is one thing. For example "belittling other Religions is okay, when it helps the good cause, spreading ours"
b) A belief system someone acts upon; going out and actually belittling other's Religion or Atheism or ... takes it to another level
I am fine with whatever people choose to belief. I draw the line when they burden me with their beliefs. Then I tell them it's wrong what they do.
Some argue: now you belittle my belief, which says I should go out and tell others for example they go to Hell; it's for their own good, I mean well
Personally I think I do not belittle their faith. Belittling falls under Human Values IMO, not specifically to do with Religion. This I explain.
But if they still feel that my reply to them is belittling, then I there is 1 reply left (No contact) to be sure that my reply won't feel belittling to them

disparage someone. It means to belittle or degrade a person or idea. Disparage is a specific way to describe a certain kind of insult, the kind that secures the insulter's place as superior.

Incidentally, I’m disparaging and vilifying all beliefs, equally
Practice makes perfect they say. So, I do my best and slowly my judgmental thoughts diminish I can see, and they will stop, I believe.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I thought that you said that what I’m discussing in this thread doesn’t happen to you
It happened to me in the beginning. Then I remembered my first dream of my Master showing me the impact/effect of exhibiting my belief. So now I decided to avoid speaking about my Religion. That's something personal, I treasure. Naturally now it does not happen anymore. If I want to share I place it in Discussion Forum. I saw one Discussion Forum on RF, where you can even put in a line like "only positive remarks allowed in this thread" (if I understood the Rules well).
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I already have the answers that I was looking for...

It's much more fun when you find answers you weren't looking for, don't you think? :D

(also, confirmation bias is a thing to be weary of... heh)


- Does anyone ever see people naming your religion and jabbing and stabbing at it, in threads where you have not mentioned the name of your religion?

Very, very rarely.

Well, a caveat with that I suppose. Most people are just plain ignorant about contemporary Paganism. That said, the word "pagan" (lower case) is used as an all-purpose snarl word by certain demographics. In this usage the speaker is rarely if ever actually talking about religion. If they were, they'd know to capitalize it like any other religion (or they should).

As for Druidry? Well, let's just say it's a lot more common for me to hear the term Druid invoked when speaking about Dungeons and Dragons than religion.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

if that happens on a site called “religiousforums”, I would not be too surprised.

ciao

- viole
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
It happened to me in the beginning. Then I remembered my first dream of my Master showing me the impact/effect of exhibiting my belief. So now I decided to avoid speaking about my Religion. That's something personal, I treasure. Naturally now it does not happen anymore. If I want to share I place it in Discussion Forum. I saw one Discussion Forum on RF, where you can even put in a line like "only positive remarks allowed in this thread" (if I understood the Rules well).
See this thread: What to do about hurtfulness of some beliefs?
 
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