• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Liberals think with their Heart?

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I would like to see that source.

Yes, Mormons tithe, but most others don't | The Christian Century

A recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that 79 percent of Mormons said they tithed to their church, a much higher percentage than in the Catholic and Protestant world.

Here's the original poll on their site.

Tithers Becoming Rare In American Churches - Consistent tithers are a small group - about 3 percent of American adults last year, according to a recent study. And the proportion of tithers appears to be dropping, the survey indicates. In 2001, 8 percent of adults surveyed reported that they tithed, according to the poll of 1,010 adults by Barna Research Group, based in Oxnard, Calif. Even among born-again Christians, 6 percent tithed last year, compared with 14 percent in 2001, the survey shows.

From here.

Also, apparently 74% of Mormons are republicans or republican-leaning, with 17% being democrats or democrat-leaning. And 66% are conservative with 22% being liberal. But even 56% of the democrat-leaning Mormons view Romney favorably.

Here is the source for that info.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
I don't consider installing a new television in your church charity, but to each their own. That statistics relies on some faulty assumptions about what helps people. We could also ask: how many people of each political affiliation cheat on their taxes, and draw conclusions about who is stingy about helping the poor that way, too.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
In the five years I have been here at RF, I have yet to see anyone who is asked for a source provide a source that was satisfactory to the person who asked for it. :rolleyes:

At least you did not insult Liberal Christians by saying the money Conservatives donate is larger because of tithing to the church.

I can't even recall a time you've offered me a source.
 

dust1n

Zindīq

-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).
-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.
-- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.
-- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.
-- In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.
-- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

Have you even read this book?



It is the statistical links that economists will pay most attention to. When one embarks on writing a book such as Brooks’, he has two choices: He can make a book that is terribly definitive, statistically precise, scientifically
detailed, and ponderously complete, or he can write a book that others will read. Brooks took the latter approach, placing technical material and tables in an appendix running from page 185 to page 208. In his words, “to describe every data source and explain every statistical test that went into the analysis in this book would make for an appendix nearly as long as the book itself” (pp. 185–186). Instead, he selected “the data summaries and statistical tests that are particularly important for building the book’s arguments.” It is a reasonable choice, but as I read I often felt that I would have liked regression results and tables or graphs interwoven into the main text to support and summarize the arguments as they were presented.

Considering the magnitude of the task undertaken by the book as a whole, however, I came to view it as a small complaint. Being a good researcher, a good expositor, and a captivating writer is a tough combination. Brooks

certainly knows that his work will ultimately succeed or fail on the basis of the statistics. The following passage is from the main text (p. 146), intended for the general reader. It shows that there is science behind the conclusions without making that off-putting.

"Imagine I have two phenomena, X and Y, and they are related to
each other. I want to know the part of the association between the
two that runs only from X to Y—not vice versa. Say I can find a
force Z that is a good predictor of X, but isn’t related to Y. I use Z
to make a prediction of the value of X—call it Xhat. If I find that
Xhat is related to Y, it can’t be because Y is pushing—it is the pure
effect of X on Y. For us, X is money giving and Y is income. Z is
volunteering…. Testing this way we find that

charity pushes up
income
—but income pushes up charity as well (emphasis added)."


http://www.gordon.edu/ace/pdf/Spr07BRGrinols.pdf

I didn't realize it was that simple. Really, something that seems complex, like crushing the numbers for quanities concerning charity and personal giving, is actually just a basic algebra equation with three variables.

If I could find the appendix of the book or the entirety online somewhere, I'd reply more specifically. I don't have a copy of the book...


 

dust1n

Zindīq
cont...

Concerns About Arthur Brooks's "Who Really Cares."--

In the post immediately below, I describe some of the arguments in Arthur Brooks’s, Who Really Cares: America’s Charity Divide; Who Gives, Who Doesn’t, and Why It Matters.

There were, however, some things that troubled me.
Although the liberal v. conservative split is the hook for the book, the data are not nearly as stark as the hype surrounding the book might indicate.

Consider this passage (pp. 21-22):
When it comes to giving or not giving, conservatives and liberals look a lot alike. Conservative people are a percentage point or two more likely to give money each year than liberal people, but a percentage point or so less likely to volunteer [citing the 2002 General Social Survey (GSS) and the 2000 Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (SCCBS)].

But this similarity fades away when we consider average dollar amounts donated. In 2000 [citing 2000 SCCBS data], households headed by a conservative gave, on average, 30 percent more money to charity than households headed by a liberal ($1,600 to $1,227). This discrepancy is not simply an artifact of income differences; on the contrary, liberal families earned an average of 6 percent more per year than conservative families, and conservative families gave more than liberal families within every income class, from poor to middle class to rich.
I am skeptical of basing so much on the SCCBS, in large part because it reports that liberal families make more money than conservatives (it is not clear from Brooks’s book whether the survey is of a representative national sample). In the 2000, 2002, and 2004 General Social Surveys, which are representative samples of the US, conservative families make $2,500 to $5,600 a year more than liberal families in each one. Although I don’t have the ANES data handy, my recollection is that the economic differences between conservatives and liberals are usually in the same direction and even larger in the ANES than in the GSS. Further, in each of these 3 GSSs, the lowest income families were the political moderates, who usually made substantially less than either liberals or conservatives.

This raises another problem with Brooks’ analysis: the contrast in Who Really Cares is frequently made between liberals (about 30% of the population) and conservatives (about 40% of the population), but I find that often the group that contrasts most strongly with conservatives is not liberals (who share with conservatives higher than average educations), but political moderates (about 30% of the population).

This problem comes to a head in Brooks’s probit and regression models analyzing SCCBS data (pp. 192-193). After controlling for a lot of things that you might not want to control for (i.e., being religious or secular), Brooks concludes that “liberals and conservatives are not distinguishable” in whether they have made any donation in the last year. This is literally true, but he fails to note that in the model liberals give significantly more than moderates, if a traditional .05 significance level is used, while conservatives do not differ significantly from moderates. Yet in Table 6, the significance level used as a threshold for identification with an asterisk is .01, not .05, as he uses in some of the other tables. In one table (p. 197), Brooks even reports significance at the .10 level, as well as at the .05 and .01 levels.

I can’t rule out the possibility that Brooks changed his reporting of the significance level so he wouldn’t have to explain why, after lots and lots of controls, liberals were more likely to have made a donation than moderates, while conservatives did not differ significantly from either liberals or moderates.

Brooks’s somewhat misleading reporting continues when he presents the results of the model predicting the dollar amount of donations. Brooks says that in the continuous dollar model, “conservatives are slightly (but distinguishably) more generous than liberals.” (p. 192) Again, this appears to be literally true. But what the model actually shows is that liberals give significantly more money than moderates, while conservatives give significantly more than both moderates and liberals. Moderates would seem to be the ungenerous ones, not liberals.

This problem of treating liberals and conservatives (who share similar levels of education) as the outliers — when moderates often are the outliers — is a common one in conservatism research, whether that research is done by liberal or conservative researchers. Here it can make liberals look as if they are at the opposite end of the spectrum in donations from conservatives, but from the data that are presented by Brooks, it’s often hard to tell whether moderates (not liberals) really are the outliers.
My first post related to Brooks’s book concerned, not liberals, moderates, and conservatives, but those who favor income redistribution v. those who don’t. Here the answer is more consistent: those who oppose income redistribution tend to be less racist, more tolerant of unpopular groups, happier, less vengeful, and more likely to report generous charitable donations. In most years of the GSS (but not 2004), political moderates tend to be nearly as redistributionist as liberals, so it’s important not to see redistribution as a simple issue of liberals v. conservatives.

Not too surprising, when "In his words, “to describe every data source and explain every statistical test that went into the analysis in this book would make for an appendix nearly as long as the book itself” (pp. 185–186). Instead, he selected “the data summaries and statistical tests that are particularly important for building the book’s arguments.”"


 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
First, I didn't say "republican". I said "conservative" because that's what we're talking about here.
Okay, I made some inaccurate assumptions. You're right. You didn't say "Republican"; you said "conservative." So let me rephrase my original response. There is absolutely no reason for you to have assumed that the more "liberal" Mormons are less likely to tithe than the "conservative" Mormons, particularly if you're using the term "conservative" to describe political leaning.
 
Last edited:

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
As a rule of thumb, if it's not peer reviewed, you can automatically ignore it regardless of what conclusions are reached.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Okay, I made some inaccurate assumptions. You're right. You didn't say "Republican"; you said "conservative." So let me rephrase my original response. There is absolutely no reason for you to have assumed that the more "liberal" Mormons are less likely to tithe than the "conservative" Mormons, particularly if you're using the term "conservative" to describe political leaning.

I'd say that's irrelevant since I didn't assume, imply, or say that. Liberal Mormons are probably just as likely to tithe as conservative Mormons. The point is that there are so many more conservative Mormons, as in about 4 times as many. The further point was that Mormons, who strongly tend to be conservative, tithe much, much more than other Christians. We're talking about conservatives vs. liberals regarding charity. A group that is mostly conservative follows a policy of tithing, which would probably be included in the charity category. Another much larger group that is more evenly split between conservative and liberal rarely follows that policy. In other words:

Group A is 70% conservative, 15% liberal and has 1 million members.
Group B is 35% conservative, 30% liberal and has 100 million members.
80% of group A tithe an average of 8%. 3% of group B tithe an average of 3%.

It's pretty easy to see how this could skew the whole "conservatives give more to charity than liberals" argument.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I'd say that's irrelevant since I didn't assume, imply, or say that. Liberal Mormons are probably just as likely to tithe as conservative Mormons. The point is that there are so many more conservative Mormons, as in about 4 times as many. The further point was that Mormons, who strongly tend to be conservative, tithe much, much more than other Christians. We're talking about conservatives vs. liberals regarding charity. A group that is mostly conservative follows a policy of tithing, which would probably be included in the charity category. Another much larger group that is more evenly split between conservative and liberal rarely follows that policy. In other words:

Group A is 70% conservative, 15% liberal and has 1 million members.
Group B is 35% conservative, 30% liberal and has 100 million members.
80% of group A tithe an average of 8%. 3% of group B tithe an average of 3%.

It's pretty easy to see how this could skew the whole "conservatives give more to charity than liberals" argument.
Okay. Whatever. I evidently misunderstood you.
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
Most of my very best friends are Liberals mostly because we have the ability to agree to disagree on most things.

While discussing many issues, I have found them to be compassionate and caring about our fellow man kind. Actually, I agree in principle with many of their concepts but where we part company is how we actually accomplish these noble ideals.

Many of my answers come from the same sources which is the rich need to pony up the resources. I want folks to give freely in the private sector where they like to tax the rich while side stepping any responsibility for themselves.

Why is it most Liberals do not contribute as much to charities as their counterparts do? When I say as much, I mean a percentage of their income.

While I believe to much is given much is expected, I also believe we all need to contribute a portion of our bounty to the less fortunate.

Why is it Liberals support the wasteful government taking on these challenges and turn a blind eye to fraud and abuse?

It is one thing to want everyone to have something, it is another thing to figure out how we are going to pay for it.

It is because SOME liberals believe in robbing from someone else to give to someone else. Heaven forbid use your own money. Why do so when the welfare state is in full operation?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
It is because SOME liberals believe in robbing from someone else to give to someone else. Heaven forbid use your own money. Why do so when the welfare state is in full operation?
This only works if you assume liberals don't pay taxes.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Most of my very best friends are Liberals mostly because we have the ability to agree to disagree on most things.

While discussing many issues, I have found them to be compassionate and caring about our fellow man kind. Actually, I agree in principle with many of their concepts but where we part company is how we actually accomplish these noble ideals.

Many of my answers come from the same sources which is the rich need to pony up the resources. I want folks to give freely in the private sector where they like to tax the rich while side stepping any responsibility for themselves.

Why is it most Liberals do not contribute as much to charities as their counterparts do? When I say as much, I mean a percentage of their income.

While I believe to much is given much is expected, I also believe we all need to contribute a portion of our bounty to the less fortunate.

Why is it Liberals support the wasteful government taking on these challenges and turn a blind eye to fraud and abuse?

It is one thing to want everyone to have something, it is another thing to figure out how we are going to pay for it.
This has more delusional straw men in it than an LSD-fueled Wizard of Oz costume party.
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
This only works if you assume liberals don't pay taxes.

It's still compulsory and impersonal, so it is less compassionate than donating freely to a cause. Or meeting these people in person and helping them out. "Here's your check, good luck".

Also, the rich pay most of the taxes, and yet it doesn't make a dent in them because of all the exceptions and loopholes. Are they even remotely compassionate? You be the judge.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It is because SOME liberals believe in robbing from someone else to give to someone else. Heaven forbid use your own money. Why do so when the welfare state is in full operation?

I've never seen a conservative who complained about the taxes they pay to fund the police department that uphold private property, an essential robbery of land that was previously owned by another party. But paying taxes is a robbery... right..
 

nekoboy

Teenage neko
I've never seen a conservative who complained about the taxes they pay to fund the police department that uphold private property, an essential robbery of land that was previously owned by another party. But paying taxes is a robbery... right..

I'm not complaining about paying for funding the police department, or taxes in general, I'm complaining about the fact that the income tax (this isn't the only tax!) gives the government enough money to do things that they SHOULDN'T DO! For the love of all that is holy, stop putting words in mouth! >:[
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
It's still compulsory and impersonal, so it is less compassionate than donating freely to a cause. Or meeting these people in person and helping them out. "Here's your check, good luck".
Non sequitur. Compassion is not diminished by strategem.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm not complaining about paying for funding the police department, or taxes in general, I'm complaining about the fact that the income tax (this isn't the only tax!) gives the government enough money to do things that they SHOULDN'T DO! For the love of all that is holy, stop putting words in mouth! >:[

Lol..
 
Top