• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Liberals think with their Heart?

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I thought not accepting what people say to be truth without empirical evidence would be one of the least defiant things one could do. Oh well, I guess transparency comes with the price. ;) Couldn't put a number on that, honestly. Then again, whatever numbers you are looking at would hardly be telling anyways.

You're so cute.

Ah, why must they eventually grow up?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Really? Historically the idea of charity didn't involve sacrifice, at least I don't remember it to be connected in any way. Can you provide examples or is this just your own personal definition?

Not like a goat sacrifice, silly.

Historically, the idea of charity has been a joke, rooted from unrelated Latin words by Christians to mean a whole new Greek word that is something more along the lines of "god's infinite love."

What I was getting at, is that the only true element to charity, is that it is self-less. And to be self-less is to not benefit from one's actions, or intend on those actions for the interest of that benefit. That being said, if you make 100,000 a year, and you donated a grand to someone, don't think I'm impressed. That would, to me, seem to be a pretty minimum amount of perseonal effort to help someone else's situation. And if what you are seeking is a resolution with yourself regarding your own selfishness and charity, you are essentially being selfish, still, not charitable.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I really have no idea what organ liberals or conservatives think with, but us non-ideological types tend to use our brains.

I only mention it, because to suggest that Liberals 'think with their heart' is to discredit them as people who overly think with their emotions as opposed to refined reason, and that is hardly productive for a converseation, let alone to start one.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Not like a goat sacrifice, silly.

Don't be insulting, you know that isn't what I meant either.

Historically, the idea of charity has been a joke, rooted from unrelated Latin words by Christians to mean a whole new Greek word that is something more along the lines of "god's infinite love."

Joke or not, it is still the accepted definition of charity.

What I was getting at, is that the only true element to charity, is that it is self-less. And to be self-less is to not benefit from one's actions, or intend on those actions for the interest of that benefit. That being said, if you make 100,000 a year, and you donated a grand to someone, don't think I'm impressed. That would, to me, seem to be a pretty minimum amount of perseonal effort to help someone else's situation. And if what you are seeking is a resolution with yourself regarding your own selfishness and charity, you are essentially being selfish, still, not charitable.

Right so this is your own personal definition of what charity should be. Duly noted. What does it have to do with the OP, you know, since none of the rest of us are using this definition. :sarcastic
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Don't be insulting, you know that isn't what I meant either.
I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what you were asking. HOW CAN YOU BE CHARITABLE WITHOUT SACRIFICING SOMETHING OF YOURS TO SOMEONE ELSE AT NO RETURN



Joke or not, it is still the accepted definition of charity.

What is? The ones I just mentioned? No, they aren't. We don't speak Latin or Ancient Greek... nor do we use those dictionaries.



Right so this is your own personal definition of what charity should be. Duly noted. What does it have to do with the OP, you know, since none of the rest of us are using this definition. :sarcastic

"Why is it most Liberals do not contribute as much to charities as their counterparts do?"

Pretty simple association, right? CHARITY = QUALITATIVE ENTITY. OP = ATTEMPT TO QUANITFY ENTITY IN ORDER TO CONSTRUCT A FAIRY TALE TO CONFIRM ONE'S OWN BELIEFS. AFOREMENTIONED IDEA BY RICK = A SAD MISUNDERSTANDING ON WHAT CHARITY IS, BECAUSE EVEN IF IT WAS BLACK AND WHITE, you or anyone else couldn't quantify that element into any meaningful anyways, especially if those numbers are only counting financial contributions (to whom doesn't seem to matter) recorded on taxes (cause it only matters if you report for your personal benefit to the government) as if financial accounts were the only form of possibly charity. Everyone else in the OP isn't using any specific denotation of the word, as none was offered in a consensus for discussion.

Feel free to ask.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
I wasn't. I honestly didn't know what you were asking. HOW CAN YOU BE CHARITABLE WITHOUT SACRIFICING SOMETHING OF YOURS TO SOMEONE ELSE AT NO RETURN

You were implying that I didn't understand what you meant by sacrifice by suggesting I was speaking of animal sacrifice. I fully understand what you mean.

What is? The ones I just mentioned? No, they aren't. We don't speak Latin or Ancient Greek... nor do we use those dictionaries.

Charity is understood as the giving of money, food, or other resources to those who are in need. There has never been any connection to that giving having to be a personal sacrifice of any kind for it to be truly charitible. This is an addition of your own making.

"Why is it most Liberals do not contribute as much to charities as their counterparts do?"

I don't know that I agree with that statement, but I don't have any statistics to deny it either.

Pretty simple association, right? CHARITY = QUALITATIVE ENTITY. OP = ATTEMPT TO QUANITFY ENTITY IN ORDER TO CONSTRUCT A FAIRY TALE TO CONFIRM ONE'S OWN BELIEFS. AFOREMENTIONED IDEA BY RICK = A SAD MISUNDERSTANDING ON WHAT CHARITY IS, BECAUSE EVEN IF IT WAS BLACK AND WHITE, you or anyone else couldn't quantify that element into any meaningful anyways, especially if those numbers are only counting financial contributions (to whom doesn't seem to matter) recorded on taxes (cause it only matters if you report for your personal benefit to the government) as if financial accounts were the only form of possibly charity. Everyone else in the OP isn't using any specific denotation of the word, as none was offered in a consensus for discussion.

Feel free to ask.

Ok, I'm asking. What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand a word you said there. And why is Rick's understanding of Charity sad considering yours is a unique understanding only used by yourself. And why mention me in relation to Rick's idea of charity when the two of us rarely agree even though we are mostly civil about it?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Most of my very best friends are Liberals mostly because we have the ability to agree to disagree on most things.

While discussing many issues, I have found them to be compassionate and caring about our fellow man kind. Actually, I agree in principle with many of their concepts but where we part company is how we actually accomplish these noble ideals.

Many of my answers come from the same sources which is the rich need to pony up the resources. I want folks to give freely in the private sector where they like to tax the rich while side stepping any responsibility for themselves.

Why is it most Liberals do not contribute as much to charities as their counterparts do? When I say as much, I mean a percentage of their income.

While I believe to much is given much is expected, I also believe we all need to contribute a portion of our bounty to the less fortunate.

Why is it Liberals support the wasteful government taking on these challenges and turn a blind eye to fraud and abuse?

It is one thing to want everyone to have something, it is another thing to figure out how we are going to pay for it.

With all due respect, I'm not sure this is an entirely fair summary, Rick. I would certainly count myself and most of my friends as "liberals," (though we usually call ourselves "progressives"), and we all give as much as we can. And not only to charities and institutions: for example, I personally make it a point to only carry as much cash as I can afford to give away if asked for it, because if someone asks me for money, I will always give them everything I have on me (that being based on the rules of giving taught by Maimonides).

What I would say about liberals is that we really want the poor taken care of and the helpless helped, and we simply don't trust that this will ever happen if doing so is left entirely voluntary. And we feel justified in that distrust, in part because it has never worked that way in the past, and in part because the ones with the most money don't seem to be particularly interested in giving any of it to the ones with none.

You understand that I don't mean this personally to you, or to my own conservative friends, whom I know to be caring and generous-- I just disagree with them about politics-- and I am sure you are the same. But you folks seem to be the exceptions to the rule about conservatives in America, not the norm.

I don't know that the poor have ever complained about who fed them and clothed them and raised them up when they were hungry, ragged, and oppressed. The important thing is that those in need be aided. So I suppose the liberal attitude is that since government is how we, as a society, make sweeping decisions and take broad actions for the public good, that's how we should first and foremost help out those in need of helping.

I can't speak for my Christian friends, but for me and my Jewish friends, this is usually very straightforward because we think about helping the poor in a very different way. I have noted on a number of occasions that Christian thought about charity seems deeply influenced by the conception of the word itself-- charity coming from the Latin caritas, meaning "compassion." In other words, in that view, charity is what one does as a good deed if one is compassionate. But in Hebrew, the word usually translated as "charity" is tzedakah, which comes from the root tzedek, meaning "justice." In other words, in that view, tzedakah is what one does because not to give money and resources to aid the poor and the hungry is simply unjust.

So, if one believes that giving aid to those in need is a fundamental matter of justice, rather than merely an act of personal compassion, it makes nothing but sense to presume that it should be communally directed and organized (and, indeed, Jewish Law teaches that when Jews go to a new place, and form a Jewish community there for the first time, the first thing that they must do-- before even the construction of a synagogue or the assemblage of a rabbinical court-- is to arrange for the collection of tzedakah and the establishment of a food pantry for the poor and hungry).

As a Jew, that's how I see it. As an American, I feel that it is my great good fortune to live in a country that sees fit to (at least in theory) protect my rights, present opportunities for me to enrich myself, and give me and others a fair shake in making the most of our lives. Plenty of other places don't do those things. The fair price that we owe in return for the freedom our government protects and the privileges and opportunities given us by the American way of life is that we give something back to the American people, in the form of tax monies we should expect the government to spend on making everyone's lives better and ensuring that everyone does, in fact, get a fair shake to make the most of their lives. And the more we benefit from America, the more successful we are, the more we ought to give back.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be rich. Or even super-rich, if they can manage it. But I am saying that I believe that part of the social contract in a civil society is that there is give and take, and that everyone, ideally should both give and take. If people are in a position where they are unable to give because they are poor, we should help them get themselves in a position where they are able to give; and if people are in a position where they don't need to take, because they are rich, we should expect them to give more as a consequence.

I would never expect that some people only give and some people only take. I think we all should pay what we can, as long as we can pay at all; but part of the responsibility of success is the duty to share one's good fortune-- not to give everything away or to dispossess oneself: it's fine to be rich-- but to share a meaningful portion, which should be proportional to one's success.

I give to charities. Nearly everyone I know gives substantially to charities. But many people in the country don't, and I don't think those who don't give are proportionally more liberal or more conservative: I think it's just most people. If everyone really gave to the best of their abilities and resources, problems in this country would be far improved from where they stand. But it is because most people don't, and won't, that I, and those liberals who think like me, are unwilling to let the lives and safety of poor people hang in the balance while those who have try to find their conscience: instead, we say let it happen mandatorily, through government, and once the issues have been addressed that way, if it looks feasible to move to a private rather than public model, we can discuss it.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
With all due respect, I'm not sure this is an entirely fair summary, Rick. I would certainly count myself and most of my friends as "liberals," (though we usually call ourselves "progressives"), and we all give as much as we can. And not only to charities and institutions: for example, I personally make it a point to only carry as much cash as I can afford to give away if asked for it, because if someone asks me for money, I will always give them everything I have on me (that being based on the rules of giving taught by Maimonides).

What I would say about liberals is that we really want the poor taken care of and the helpless helped, and we simply don't trust that this will ever happen if doing so is left entirely voluntary. And we feel justified in that distrust, in part because it has never worked that way in the past, and in part because the ones with the most money don't seem to be particularly interested in giving any of it to the ones with none.

You understand that I don't mean this personally to you, or to my own conservative friends, whom I know to be caring and generous-- I just disagree with them about politics-- and I am sure you are the same. But you folks seem to be the exceptions to the rule about conservatives in America, not the norm.

I don't know that the poor have ever complained about who fed them and clothed them and raised them up when they were hungry, ragged, and oppressed. The important thing is that those in need be aided. So I suppose the liberal attitude is that since government is how we, as a society, make sweeping decisions and take broad actions for the public good, that's how we should first and foremost help out those in need of helping.

I can't speak for my Christian friends, but for me and my Jewish friends, this is usually very straightforward because we think about helping the poor in a very different way. I have noted on a number of occasions that Christian thought about charity seems deeply influenced by the conception of the word itself-- charity coming from the Latin caritas, meaning "compassion." In other words, in that view, charity is what one does as a good deed if one is compassionate. But in Hebrew, the word usually translated as "charity" is tzedakah, which comes from the root tzedek, meaning "justice." In other words, in that view, tzedakah is what one does because not to give money and resources to aid the poor and the hungry is simply unjust.

So, if one believes that giving aid to those in need is a fundamental matter of justice, rather than merely an act of personal compassion, it makes nothing but sense to presume that it should be communally directed and organized (and, indeed, Jewish Law teaches that when Jews go to a new place, and form a Jewish community there for the first time, the first thing that they must do-- before even the construction of a synagogue or the assemblage of a rabbinical court-- is to arrange for the collection of tzedakah and the establishment of a food pantry for the poor and hungry).

As a Jew, that's how I see it. As an American, I feel that it is my great good fortune to live in a country that sees fit to (at least in theory) protect my rights, present opportunities for me to enrich myself, and give me and others a fair shake in making the most of our lives. Plenty of other places don't do those things. The fair price that we owe in return for the freedom our government protects and the privileges and opportunities given us by the American way of life is that we give something back to the American people, in the form of tax monies we should expect the government to spend on making everyone's lives better and ensuring that everyone does, in fact, get a fair shake to make the most of their lives. And the more we benefit from America, the more successful we are, the more we ought to give back.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be rich. Or even super-rich, if they can manage it. But I am saying that I believe that part of the social contract in a civil society is that there is give and take, and that everyone, ideally should both give and take. If people are in a position where they are unable to give because they are poor, we should help them get themselves in a position where they are able to give; and if people are in a position where they don't need to take, because they are rich, we should expect them to give more as a consequence.

I would never expect that some people only give and some people only take. I think we all should pay what we can, as long as we can pay at all; but part of the responsibility of success is the duty to share one's good fortune-- not to give everything away or to dispossess oneself: it's fine to be rich-- but to share a meaningful portion, which should be proportional to one's success.

I give to charities. Nearly everyone I know gives substantially to charities. But many people in the country don't, and I don't think those who don't give are proportionally more liberal or more conservative: I think it's just most people. If everyone really gave to the best of their abilities and resources, problems in this country would be far improved from where they stand. But it is because most people don't, and won't, that I, and those liberals who think like me, are unwilling to let the lives and safety of poor people hang in the balance while those who have try to find their conscience: instead, we say let it happen mandatorily, through government, and once the issues have been addressed that way, if it looks feasible to move to a private rather than public model, we can discuss it.

Great post Sir! I agree the government should play a roll in this, but just because the government does this or that should not relieve everyone of us who can to also give to private charities as well which I am sure you would agree.

Do you feel than many progressives don't see a need for private charities and believe they should not exist?

By the tone of this thread, I get the feeling many people despise what many of us do and feel that should be the governments job only.

I could be way off base here.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
As a long-time DC area resident who has worked as a government contractor in tandem with various agencies and departments, I can tell you that it nearly always costs the government 10 times as much to do 1/10 the work as it does for the private sector. Bureaucracy is the diametric opposite of efficiency.

This seems a little self-contradictory to me. If you were a private contractor and you observed this inefficiency first hand, doesn't that imply that the inefficiency you observed was related to the private sector outsourcing of services the government could have provided?

From the other side (working for the government in the UK) it was pretty well understood among us "bureaucrats" that the privatization of public sector services generally cost exponentially more and resulted in a dramatic deterioration of service. My department paid a private sector "consultant" 75,000 pounds for an excel spreadsheet I would happily have made myself in a week for my very ordinary wage, thanks to a prevailing public mentality resembling the one you express in this post: government = wasteful, private sector = efficient.

Let's make it a little more realistic. Government is most efficient for universally necessary public services. The private sector is most efficient for consumption-oriented, market-driven innovation. Both sectors are optimally efficient in their own milieu, and utterly inefficient in the other. Government + private sector = the absolute worst possible scenario. The highest public cost for least public benefit.
 
Last edited:

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
This seems a little self-contradictory to me. If you were a contractor and you observed this inefficiency firsthand, doesn't that imply that the inefficiency was directly related to the private sector outsourcing of services the government could have provided themselves?

From the other side (working for the government in the UK) it was pretty well understood that the privatization of public sector services generally cost exponentially more and resulted in a dramatic deterioration of service.

Would you not agree that one side can only be right here?

If your position where true, why on earth would there even be such a thing as private government contractors?

If the government is wrong for using these contractors in the first place does that not support my position even more that the government is essentially stupid for using them?

Your proving my point quite well.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Great post Sir! I agree the government should play a roll in this, but just because the government does this or that should not relieve everyone of us who can to also give to private charities as well which I am sure you would agree.

Do you feel than many progressives don't see a need for private charities and believe they should not exist?

By the tone of this thread, I get the feeling many people despise what many of us do and feel that should be the governments job only.

I could be way off base here.

Thanks for your kind words, sir!

I absolutely agree that even if the government were to do everything I would hope it possibly could, I would still also give to private charities, and hope everyone else would do so as well. I don't think there is any other way that we can ever hope to wipe out poverty, ignorance, hunger, homelessness, and the other curses of human existence.

I highly doubt that most progressives feel that there should be no private charities, but everything should come through the government. I would guess any thinking progressive will understand that there will always be situations-- even if everyone in America had shelter, had health care, had quality fresh food, had adequate opportunities for gainful employment, etc.-- where the government has accomplished the maximum amount of assistance it can provide, and yet the lives of certain people could be easily improved and new opportunities opened to them with just a little more help. Or there may be different issues that are somehow better handled by private agencies-- financial assistance to parents wanting to pay for religious education, for example: a worthy cause, but not one I believe that the Treasury of the United States should be used for.

In any case, I don't think liberal people despise charities or those who give to them and support them. On the contrary, every progressive I have ever known well has been a giver of charity and a supporter of charitable institutions. I don't know why liberals would think that, any more than conservatives. Helping people is good, no matter who does it.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Would you not agree that one side can only be right here?

If your position where true, why on earth would there even be such a thing as private government contractors?

Can you think of one single thing from which a dollar can be made that some enterprising private sector businessman has not found a way to exploit? Why WOULDN'T there be an army of private sector contractors clamoring to profit from services the government used to provide for free (IOW, revenue-neutral)?

Of course I don't agree that "only one side" can be right. The private sector is excellent at what it does. The government is also excellent at what it does. The private and public sector don't (or at least shouldn't) do the same thing. The government should address universal necessities (food, housing, education, water, power, public transportation, etc) and the private sector should address non-essential "extras" (iPhones, yachts, luxury condos, holidays, fancy cars, lattes, etc)

The relationship between the public and private sector should be friendly but detached. The American symbiosis of the interests of the political and corporate classes is the reason you have so many frivolous wars and get nothing of value (i.e. health care) in return for your tax dollars.

Americans should not destroy the government by clamoring for the privatization of everything. Instead, they should insist that their government give them better service.

If the government is wrong for using these contractors in the first place does that not support my position even more that the government is essentially stupid for using them?

Your proving my point quite well.

Many Americans are stupid for believing there is any difference, conflict or tension between their government and the largest corporations in the country. They are on the same team. You, the American people, are on the other team.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
This seems a little self-contradictory to me. If you were a private contractor and you observed this inefficiency first hand, doesn't that imply that the inefficiency you observed was related to the private sector outsourcing of services the government could have provided?

I don't really understand your rationale. No, it is nearly all due to 1) the inefficient, arbitrary, and irrational practices, processes, and methods of the bureaucracy of the government; 2) the second-rate people who are the actual government employees.

From the other side (working for the government in the UK) it was pretty well understood among us "bureaucrats" that the privatization of public sector services generally cost exponentially more and resulted in a dramatic deterioration of service. My department paid a private sector "consultant" 75,000 pounds for an excel spreadsheet I would happily have made myself in a week for my very ordinary wage, thanks to a prevailing public mentality resembling the one you express in this post: government = wasteful, private sector = efficient.

Yeah, I don't know about the UK, only the US. However, all else being equal, bureacracy has traditionally always been less efficient than the private sector. This is the nature of bureacracy.

I've worked for a wide variety of companies, in a number of industries, both government-contracted and private sector, and am familiar with many more through acquaintances and peers. I have never seen any evidence that the bureaucracy of the government is more efficient than the private sector at anything. It simply comes down to the impetus to produce and perform. The need to be efficient and produce results in systems, processes, methods, and practices which facilitate this. The specific end goal is mostly irrelevant.

The government and private sector cultures are vastly different, and attract very different types of people. Not everyone working for the government is an idiot or lazy, but I've seen that most people who have more skills, knowledge, and motivation, almost always tend to gravitate toward the more challenging, greater risk-reward world of private companies.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
You were implying that I didn't understand what you meant by sacrifice by suggesting I was speaking of animal sacrifice. I fully understand what you mean.

Was just making sure we were on the same page. Sacrifice is mostly associated with divinity, and I just wanted to make sure we were talking about that.



Charity is understood as the giving of money, food, or other resources to those who are in need. There has never been any connection to that giving having to be a personal sacrifice of any kind for it to be truly charitible. This is an addition of your own making.

How can you give money, food or other resources without sacrificing money, food or other resources?


I don't know that I agree with that statement, but I don't have any statistics to deny it either.

You don't need statistics to deny an absurd, unbacked claim. It's not your job, too. My overall point is that the claim is ridiculous because it discounts anything that isn't a tax-written donation, which is no where the entirity of 'charity' is. Furthermore, the guy uses the overall donations of 'red' and 'blue' states, so, with no way of actually knowing, it's jsut as possible that all the democrats in the red states actually donated a **** ton, which made the 'red' states seem larger.



Ok, I'm asking. What the hell are you talking about? I don't understand a word you said there.

Oh well.

And why is Rick's understanding of Charity sad considering yours is a unique understanding only used by yourself. And why mention me in relation to Rick's idea of charity when the two of us rarely agree even though we are mostly civil about it?

I just explained why his narrow picturing of charity is sad. And my idea isn't unique or alone...

Luke 21:1-4 esv

Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I can think of a few.

If your wit was half as entertaining as you seem to think it is at times, you wouldn't be wasting it through such a pointless medium. All I did was ask for data.. if you can't provide it, than I can't just take your assessment as truth. No doubt there is inefficiencies in government. Ten times the inefficientcy in most situations? Pretty big statement. And I didn't defy anything in the firstplace because you aren't a known authority on the subject (or if you are, I don't know this). Any costs saved anyways aren't necessarily a sign of better efficiency.
 
Top