Discussion of the Secret Book of John

[Buttons*]

I dont know if anyone would be interested in this... but i'd like to start sort of a "bible study" about one of the Gnostic books that i've been really into lately.

Anyone else want to participate? We would discuss, disect, and really meditate on the book piece by peace, until maybe we had a little better understanding. I know that personal revelation is...well... personal, but I was thinking maybe if we threw some ideas round, we may get a new understanding, or perspective we hadnt thought of.

The story was that John had been confronted by someone while traveling with his brother James. John started to have doubts about his faith, and so he began to ask questions about what Yeshua was really trying to say. The earth shook and a 3 formed-spirit figure appeared to him. It said that it was the perfect being. (it continued to change forms...from old to young and everything inbetween)
(...does anyone else think of the trinity {in a purely allegorical sense of course} at this point?)
He asked it to explain things to him, and the spirit replied with what we're going to be looking at.

(also, i believe this will help my case in determining that Taoism and Gnosticism are extremely similar)

Here's the first bit:

The One

And I asked if I might understand this, and it said to me,

"The One is a soverign that has nothing over it. It is God and parent, father of all, the invisible one that is over all, that is incorruptable, that is pure light at which no eye can gaze."

Pretty self explanitory to me...

The One, IS. (was, will be, forever, always, never, undone... any of the opposites and balances you could imagine) In this way, i think it's like the Tao....(i keep getting off topic)

any thoughts?

 

[michel]

Count me in; it is something I have been wanting to get into, but I haven't known where to start. Yours sounds good, and I am reasonably sure there are two or three other members I can think of straight away who would be interested.

 

[evearael]

I'm afraid I know nothing of Gnosticism except bits and pieces gleamed here. Which books do you follow that are not cannonized by mainstream Christianity? I would love a chance to study more religious texts!

 

[Buttons*]

I'm afraid I know nothing of Gnosticism except bits and pieces gleamed here. Which books do you follow that are not cannonized by mainstream Christianity? I would love a chance to study more religious texts!

anything out of the Nag Hammadi Library

if you're used to reading Christian stuff though, you could pick up The Gnostic Gospels of Jesus, by Mervin Meyer... it helps with the transition, and has fantastic footnotes.

 

[evearael]

Thanks! I'll pick those up as soon as the funds are available... though I'm not sure when that will be.

 

[Buttons*]

Thanks! I'll pick those up as soon as the funds are available... though I'm not sure when that will be.

there are texts you could find online... but I hate online sources because sometimes they arent always factual... (yeah, i know, its a sin to hate wiki, but i do)

I'll be posting verses directly from the book because I find it better. That's just me though. If you do look online, find something, and have questions, you can ask Halcyon or me. We have good footnotes to refer to

 

[Halcyon]

I guess i'm in by default (and if i'm not then prepare for badger related wrath).

The One, IS. (was, will be, forever, always, never, undone... any of the opposites and balances you could imagine) In this way, i think it's like the Tao....(i keep getting off topic)

I agree entirely. And if i may, i would like to cross-link to my favourite text, Allogenes ( :areyoucra ). This passage describes the One;

Thus it has no need of mind or life or anything, for it is greater than all in its ultimacy and incomprehensibility, in nonexistant reality. It is silence and stillness not to be limited by the unlimited.

It is not divinity or blessedness or perfection; rather, it is something unknowable. Not that it has this, but it is greater than blessedness and divinity and perfection. It is not perfect, but greater. It is not infinite or limited by another, but greater.

The One is greater than anything that we can imagine, to comprehend it we divide it into attributes of the divine mind eg. wisdom. This is because The One is too great to be understood in its complete and contradictory nature by our limited minds.
Thus we have Gnosis, an understanding that is deep and almost subconscious - it cannot be explained in words.

Blah, blah, blah......

That's enough from me i think

 

[Buttons*]

I guess i'm in by default

yes, yes you are! *smiles*

I agree entirely. And if i may, i would like to cross-link to my favourite text, Allogenes ( :areyoucra ). This passage describes the One;

well, if it aids in the explination of John's secret gospel, then by all means. However, I want to try to keep this as organized and on-topic as possible. If it relates to the One, and you be sure to specify that is it not in John, go ahead! *smiles*

I'm going to try to go though it bit by bit. Either every other day, or weekly, i havent decided yet. Sometimes a page at a time, sometimes only a few words, if I find it necissary. If you have any suggestions on how to make it a little smoother, you may PM me about them, and i'll take it into consideration.

The One is greater than anything that we can imagine, to comprehend it we divide it into attributes of the divine mind eg. wisdom. This is because The One is too great to be understood in its complete and contradictory nature by our limited minds.
Thus we have Gnosis, an understanding that is deep and almost subconscious - it cannot be explained in words.

Blah, blah, blah......

That's enough from me i think

well, i think you're spot on... and there'll be many discussions that we'll have to repeat ourselves, but I think the more we focus on it, and start really think about what we're saying when we say it, we'll be better off. So, your input is very critical, Paulus. You have a better understanding than I do, especailly when it comes to the luminaries and allogens. *smiles*

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Oh, me too, me too. Count me IN. I can't wait to see what Truths we unfold. And I like John, I think the Christians today would have been a much more loving and forgiving group if they had followed John instead of Peter and Paul. But that is just an opinionated comment.

Score!
Look what I found in regards to the 3 images. I KNEW THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS A WOMAN. Mother, that is, I have tried to explain the trinity as father, mother, son for a while now. It is reflected this way in all the other religions, I don't understand why Christians insist on seeing a patriarchal triune being. Any way here is the quote:

There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html

 

[Buttons*]

*smiles* this is what I was gonna post tomorrow! It's really great to see everyone so enthused about this! *is happied*

... i had no idea you were mystic! Wow, what a great surprise!

Oh, me too, me too. Count me IN. I can't wait to see what Truths we unfold. And I like John, I think the Christians today would have been a much more loving and forgiving group if they had followed John instead of Peter and Paul. But that is just an opinionated comment.

I know you're going to find this shocking, but i think everyone would be a more loving, forgiving group if we all looked at Gnostic stuff.... That, of course, is only me. (i hope no one shoots me for that piece of herecy)

Look what I found in regards to the 3 images. I KNEW THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS A WOMAN. Mother, that is, I have tried to explain the trinity as father, mother, son for a while now. It is reflected this way in all the other religions, I don't understand why Christians insist on seeing a patriarchal triune being. Any way here is the quote:

"There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms."

Yes, The balance of powers would go as such: Mother, Father, Perfect Child. (of the light) It, as i've said before, is a lot like Taoism in its balancing of powers and connection with all that is. (the One) A good thing to try and understand about Gnostic texts early on, is that not everything is what it appears to be.... and sometims it is! *smiles*


Try not to take what is said literally in any case, because then we'll be arguing about doctrine, and this is NOT what we're trying to do here. Questions are welcome, but please try not to think of the Mother, Father, and Perfect Child as actual people. Try not to think of what you KNOW as a person, and what is physical.... for future reference and whatnot.....

He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man.

http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html

... yep *smiles* I cant tell you how excited i am about this!!

That part highlighted in Red is very important for things we'll be discussing.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

yup! *smiles* this is what I was gonna post tomorrow! It's really great to see everyone so enthused about this! *is happied*

... i had no idea you were mystic! Wow, what a great surprise!

I seem to be a lot of things. I have not found a 'box' yet that fits all that I believe to be true. I am like you, I find the most incredible similarities between the beliefs. Not just gnostic and taoism, but all religous teachings are saying the same thing, I study all beliefs, and I find that once I dig through and sort out the dogma and traditions, there is a common truth found in the heart of every belief system. And that is what I call the UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF GOD. Not limited to any one religion.

 

[Buttons*]

I seem to be a lot of things. I have not found a 'box' yet that fits all that I believe to be true. I am like you, I find the most incredible similarities between the beliefs. Not just gnostic and taoism, but all religous teachings are saying the same thing, I study all beliefs, and I find that once I dig through and sort out the dogma and traditions, there is a common truth found in the heart of every belief system. And that is what I call the UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF GOD. Not limited to any one religion.

I agree completely. I'm not limited strictly to Gnosticism... in fact, I believe, for myself, that being Gnostic allows me to be a member of any and all religion. (i know, it sounds odd...)

 

[ChrisP]

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

 

[michel]

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

Sorry Chris, from what did you read that?

 

[Halcyon]

Sorry Chris, from what did you read that?

Thats from the Secret Book (Apocryphon) of John. You can find it here Mich
http://www.gnosis.org/~gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

Ok, well personally i don't believe in the demiurge as a being, i think of it as all those things that hinder us in our acquiring Gnosis.
But, to answer your question

The Demiurge is the 'grandson' of the God in the text you quoted. That God is The One, the God of the Gnostics. The Demiurge is the son of Sophia, the god of the Old Testament. He created the world in such a way as to blind humanity to the truth.
Personally, i don't believe he created the world, i believe our universe is one of innumerable emanations from the One.
But the ancients believed that the demiurge was born flawed, and passed this flaw onto the world he created.

What is he up to today? Well, he's blinding something like 3 billion people to the truth, everyone that worships him is creating a thicker veil over their own eyes.

 

[michel]

Thats from the Secret Book (Apocryphon) of John. You can find it here Mich
http://www.gnosis.org/~gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html


Ok, well personally i don't believe in the demiurge as a being, i think of it as all those things that hinder us in our acquiring Gnosis.
But, to answer your question

The Demiurge is the 'grandson' of the God in the text you quoted. That God is The One, the God of the Gnostics. The Demiurge is the son of Sophia, the god of the Old Testament. He created the world in such a way as to blind humanity to the truth.
Personally, i don't believe he created the world, i believe our universe is one of innumerable emanations from the One.
But the ancients believed that the demiurge was born flawed, and passed this flaw onto the world he created.

What is he up to today? Well, he's blinding something like 3 billion people to the truth, everyone that worships him is creating a thicker veil over their own eyes.

Thanks.

 

[Buttons*]

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

see? now you're questioning doctrine!

In the mythology of it IS strange. Halcyon covered it pretty well. But the allegory is that out of wisdom, ignorance is born. from ONE source we have our wisdom, but the One did not create ignorance, Sophia, (wisdom) was confused, and simply wanted to create. She took the wrong route and did not ask the One for permission... therefore the demiurge, ignorance, was ugly, misshapen, and hateful. It is all applicable to our own minds, and our own experiences with finding the One, Wisdom, and Ignorance.

Hopefully everyone sees what i'm trying to get across here.... )(

 

[gnostic]

I agree completely. I'm not limited strictly to Gnosticism... in fact, I believe, for myself, that being Gnostic allows me to be a member of any and all religion. (i know, it sounds odd...)

Or in my (agnostic) case, all religion but none at all.

 

[Buttons*]

Please read "He" as "the One"

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.

"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him."

... and now to disect.....

 

[Buttons*]

Or in my (agnostic) case, all religion but none at all.

*smiles*