Difference in wages between men and women's jobs

[Le Neigeden d'antan]

The wage gap is largely a myth. There are a number of contributing factors that are apparent once you scratch the surface of these mere statistics.

For instance, Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more, and often work longer hours. So, while it's true that if you compare annual salaries, women make less than men per capita, there are many factors at play, and it's not always attributable to discrimination.

In fact, I remember a study that showed that recent college graduates who are women are now making more than their male counterparts when all other factors are accounted and controlled for, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.
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[Draka]

The wage gap is largely a myth. There are a number of contributing factors that are apparent once you scratch the surface of these mere statistics.

For instance, Men are far more likely to choose careers that are more dangerous, so they naturally pay more, and often work longer hours. So, while it's true that if you compare annual salaries, women make less than men per capita, there are many factors at play, and it's not always attributable to discrimination.

In fact, I remember a study that showed that recent college graduates who are women are now making more than their male counterparts when all other factors are accounted and controlled for, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.
​

Have you read this thread at all to see that this is not what the issue really is? Apples to oranges. If people think the complaint is that a fireman makes more than teacher's aid or a construction worker makes more than a customer service rep then they just don't get it. The issue is when a female construction worker gets paid less than a male construction worker, or a female customer service rep gets paid less than a male customer service rep. Apples to apples.

 

[Me Myself]

Have you read this thread at all to see that this is not what the issue really is? Apples to oranges. If people think the complaint is that a fireman makes more than teacher's aid or a construction worker makes more than a customer service rep then they just don't get it. The issue is when a female construction worker gets paid less than a male construction worker, or a female customer service rep gets paid less than a male customer service rep. Apples to apples.

No, but what he says is right. I mean sure, it is an issue if women are paid less for the same quality and amount of work a man does, but as it seems, this is less likely to happen than the opposite scenario and the most likely scenario is that they are paid the same al circumstances (except obviously their gender) being equal.

 

[dust1n]

Then it must be either equal or detrimental to the man, because by 1970 the gap was because of the factors mentioned and not discrimination.

Keep dreaming.

The whole "gender gap is not discrimination because there are reasons a, b, c, men make more" is so considerably stale and boring of an argument that I should maintain my silence on the subject. The fact that "a, b, c" has been taken into consideration in practically every study on the issue for the last forty years, and the overwhelming majority of them still having gaps that can't be attributed to the trite, sleep-inducing premises offered over and over again, has literally made this topic a complete mockery of debate and serious gender issues in general.

 

[Alceste]

High paid people are expected to produce. If they don't, they don't last long. :no:

Unless they're bankers. Then the taxpayer picks up their slack.

 

[Me Myself]

Keep dreaming.

The whole "gender gap is not discrimination because there are reasons a, b, c, men make more" is so considerably stale and boring of an argument that I should maintain my silence on the subject. The fact that "a, b, c" has been taken into consideration in practically every study on the issue for the last forty years, and the overwhelming majority of them still having gaps that can't be attributed to the trite, sleep-inducing premises offered over and over again, has literally made this topic a complete mockery of debate and serious gender issues in general.

Ah, then giving me a source for that that includes e considerations of the studies and such should be a complete piece of cake, right?

Havent found a direct refutal to Farrel with a study. By all means if you have them I 'll love to check them out

 

[dust1n]

Ah, then giving me a source for that that includes e considerations of the studies and such should be a complete piece of cake, right?

Havent found a direct refutal to Farrel with a study. By all means if you have them I 'll love to check them out

Sorry, I'm not going to debate with a sound bite from thirty years ago. I have no idea where Farrel gets his information from, so I couldn't examine even if I wanted to, but that's secondary to the fact that I'm not going to debate whatever you immediately decide is the truth depending on what video you watch, and that's even a side note to the original main thing here, which is I'm not going to debate on this thread, because it is a joke.

 

[Me Myself]

Sorry, I'm not going to debate with a sound bite from thirty years ago. I have no idea where Farrel gets his information from, so I couldn't examine even if I wanted to, but that's secondary to the fact that I'm not going to debate whatever you immediately decide is the truth depending on what video you watch, and that's even a side note to the original main thing here, which is I'm not going to debate on this thread, because it is a joke.

I am actively looking for a debunk of his studies I dont find it.

I do find opposition to him calling him a mysoginist and other unfounded bull though.



Warren Farrell protest at the University of Toronto - Full version - YouTube

 

[Alceste]

I am actively looking for a debunk of his studies I dont find it.

What studies are those? Link please. I love reading studies.

 

[Alceste]

Wow, just looked into this guy's views on rape to see what they're so mad about. He actually does think rape and incest are a good thing, and that asking parents not to rape or molest their underage children is repressive and destructive. Credibility = 0.

I wonder where he keeps his NAMBLA membership.

 

[Me Myself]

Wow, just looked into this guy's views on rape to see what they're so mad about. He actually does think rape and incest are a good thing, and that asking parents not to rape or molest their underage children is repressive and destructive. Credibility = 0.

I wonder where he keeps his NAMBLA membership.

Nope, he doesnt.

 

[Me Myself]

For what I read he used the US census, the difference is that he made new correlations that were peior ignored.

Thats how he saw the real reason for the wage gap.

He is not the only one saying it either

http://www.iwf.org/media/2424985/CNBC:-Gender-Wage-Gap---Myth-or-Reality

 

[MoonWater]

Nope, he doesnt.

yes he does:

What Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell actually said about the allegedly positive aspects of incest. (Note: it’s even more repugnant than that sounds.) | man boobz

In a typical traumatic case, an authoritarian father, unhappily married in a sexually repressed household and probably unemployed, drunkenly imposes himself on his young daughter. Genital petting may have started as early as age eight with first intercourse occurring around twelve. Since the father otherwise extends very little attention to his daughter, his sexual advances may be one of the few pleasant experiences she has with him.

The article continues:

If she is unaware of society’s taboo and if the mother does not intervene, she has no reason to suspect the enormity of the aberration. But when she grows up and learns of the taboo, she feels cheapened.

So the incest “taboo” is the main problem, not the abuse itself?

And here is a doozy of a quote from Farrell directly:

“When I get my most glowing positive cases, 6 out of 200,” says Farrell, “the incest is part of the family’s open, sensual style of life, wherein sex is an outgrowth of warmth and affection. It is more likely that the father has good sex with his wife, and his wife is likely to know and approve — and in one or two cases to join in.”

(Note: I’m relying on the Liz Library’s transcription of this quote; some of the text in their scan of this page is blurry.)

Farrell told Nobile that he was feeling hesitant about publishing his book, because it might encourage exploitation of daughters, but that he felt compelled to continue researching it for two main reasons:

“First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t. My book should at least begin the exploration.”

“Second, I’m finding that thousands of people in therapy for incest are being told, in essence , that their lives have been ruined by incest. In fact, their lives have not generally been affected as much by the incest as by the overall atmosphere. …

Farrell also hopes to change public attitudes so that participants in incest will no longer be automatically perceived as victims. “The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. “

http://i.imgur.com/cwSoc.png

"If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying...
"We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting."
“As long as society tells men to be the salespersons of sex, it is sexist for society to put only men in jail if they sell well. We don’t put other salespersons in jail for buying clients drinks and successfully transforming a “no” into a “maybe” into a “yes”. If the client makes a choice to drink too much and the “yes” turns out to be a bad decision, it is the client who gets fired, not the salesperson. We expect adults to take responsibility.”
p. 321
“Early feminists sensed this: they were strong opponents of protective legislation. They knew that as long as the princess was protected from the pea, women would be deprived of equality. The modern-day woman’s ‘pea under the mattress’ is the rough spots in the workplace. When today’s feminists are proponents of protective legislation, they oppose equality. Sexual harassment legislation is sexist because it makes only the man responsible for the male role in the sexual dance.”
p. 307
“In a sense, sexual harassment lawsuits are just the latest version of the female selection process—allowing her to select for men who care enough for her to put their career at risk; who have enough finesse to initiate without becoming a jerk and enough guts to initiate despite a potential lawsuit… In the past, though, the process of his overcoming her barriers was called ‘courtship.’ Now it is called either ‘courtship’ or ‘sexual harassment’.”
p. 291
-- Myth of male power

sounds quite deplorable to me. and in my experience it is not uncommon for men's rights activists such as himself to be mysoginistic especially on matters of rape. it sounds like he thinks if the perpetrator found it enjoyable then it must have been okay and that if she has had a couple drinks then it's her fault. How do you take anything this guy says seriously?

 

[Me Myself]

yes he does:

What Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell actually said about the allegedly positive aspects of incest. (Note: it’s even more repugnant than that sounds.) | man boobz




http://i.imgur.com/cwSoc.png
[quote
"If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying...
"We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting."
-- Myth of male power

[/QUOTE]

More context on the "rape date" thing

""If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying.
"Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said "no" to sex even "when they meant yes." In my own work with over 150,000 men and women - about half of whom are single - the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy's place "just to talk" but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they've recently said something like "That's far enough for now," even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his.

The reality is that women do say "no" while meaning "yes" a heckuvallot of times. Maybe you havent done it, but it certainly happens very frequently. It is not the same to giggly say no than to say on a disctinct serious tone "no" while looking for eye contactand pausing any sexual behaviour. We do acknowledge that verbal is the least communicative part of a discourse. In all areas except this one.

About incest he was doing a study and reporting his findings unbiased.


Though what I find most telling is that he puts up a book on "the truth about the wage gap" and no one has been able to refute him on his findings. If they were so wrong you would find refutes on the first entry search because his point is UNPOPULAR . This mean that people will actively try to finid fault in it.

So back,to the thread topic, where is there fault in his study anout the wage gap? Where?

 

[Alceste]

Me Myself, do you really want to defend the position that rape and incest are good?

 

[Me Myself]

I have no interest on incest nor rape on this thread, you brought completely unrelated subjects here because you are trying to poison the well after not finding anything contrary to the true findings about the wage gap.

If you are interested on discussing verbal contradictions on sex scenarios by all means start a thread, sounds like an interesting subject.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Wow, that Warren Farrell guy should become a member of RF. With his ability to rationalize and argue a twisted and untenable position, he would fit right in with much of the membership.

 

[Alceste]

I have no interest on incest nor rape on this thread, you brought completely unrelated subjects here because you are trying to poison the well after not finding anything contrary to the true findings about the wage gap.

If you are interested on discussing verbal contradictions on sex scenarios by all means start a thread, sounds like an interesting subject.

Actually, you brought it up. Did you expect to post a lengthy video of people complaining about Farrell's horrific endorsements of rape and incest and not have to have a conversation about it?

 

[Me Myself]

Actually, you brought it up. Did you expect to post a lengthy video of people complaining about Farrell's horrific endorsements of rape and incest and not have to have a conversation about it?

I'll indulge you then and say I did.

Back to the topic, there seems to be no real wage gap based on gender alone when taking into consideration all factors relevant to the payment of employees.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'll indulge you then and say I did.

Back to the topic, there seems to be no real wage gap based on gender alone when taking into consideration all factors relevant to the payment of employees.

Au contraire:

Gender pay differences are not merely a problem for women returning to work and part-time employees, but also for those in full-time, continuous careers. In data from cohort studies, the gender wage gap for full-time workers in their early thirties fell between 1978 and 2000. This equalization reflects improvements in women’s education and experience rather more than a move towards equal treatment. Indeed, had the typical woman full-timer in 2000 been paid at men’s rates she would have actually received higher pay than the typical man. Within one cohort, passing from age 33 to 42, gender inequality increased. This was partly due to differences in the qualifications and experience of the women in employment at those points, but unequal treatment also rose among women employed full time at both ages.

Source

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the gender wage gap still exists due to factors unassociated with merit, education, experience, productivity, etc.