Did Paul Corrupt Christianity?

[Ingledsva]

Could Yeshua have been the son of a Roman?

That is what the Jews claimed.

The Quran tells us his mother was a temple woman. Apocryphal books tell us she was a "Temple Virgin" under the Highpriest Zacharius.

Holy Virgin was the title of the temple priestesses of Asherah,. We know from the Bible that Solomon brought back her worship in the temple! “Almah” was mistakenly translated as virgin, it meant a young unmarried woman. It is derived from the Persian Al-Mah, the unmated Moon-Goddess.

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary, written 300's AD, supposedly written by Matthew, and the Protevangelion, written by James, Yeshua's brother, one of Mary's other sons, tell us It was custom after their service to the Temple, to give the Temple "Virgins" in marriage to prominent men of the community, usually nobles. That is probably how she ends up betrothed to old Joseph. But she is already pregnant!

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 67a) tells us the father of Jesus was a Roman archer from Tyre named Panthera. The blue eyed, golden headed idea of Jesus isn’t modern. Somewhere I’ve saved a quote supposedly from a Roman who saw Jesus. I’ll try to find it.

Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in circa A.D. 178, said that he heard from a Jew that 'Miriam' had become pregnant by 'Pantheras,' a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret.

"It happened with R. Elazar ben Damah, whom a serpent bit, that Jacob, a man of Kefar Soma, came to heal him in the name of Yeshua ben Pantera; but R. Ishmael did not let him. He said, "You are not permitted, Ben Damah." He answered, "I will bring you proof that he may heal me." But he had no opportunity to bring proof, for he died. (Whereupon) R. Ishmael said, "Happy art thou, Ben Damah, for you have gone in peace and you have not broken down the fence of the Sages; since everyone who breaks down the fence of the Sages, to him punishment will ultimately come, as it is in Scripture: 'Whoso breaketh through a fence, a serpent shall bite him.'" (Tosefta Hullin 2.22; Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbath 14d and Abodah Zarah 40d, 41a; Babylonian Talmud, Abodah Zarah 27b)

According to the Jews he was the son of 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, a Roman archer, who in 9 c.e. was transferred to service in Germany where he died.

*

 

[Kenny]

in what way Jesus "fulfill the Law"?

John Wesley had it short and sweet:

"I am not come to destroy - The moral law, but to fulfil - To establish, illustrate, and explain its highest meaning, both by my life and doctrine."

 

[socharlie]

John Wesley had it short and sweet:

"I am not come to destroy - The moral law, but to fulfil - To establish, illustrate, and explain its highest meaning, both by my life and doctrine."

Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Phantasman]

Yes......... studying with so little evidence, and working only with the balance of probabilities and possibilities, that's all I've got.

Would it be rude to suggest that I don't see much from you but Faith?

I do value G-Mark together with many pericopes from the other gospels, but that's all I've got.

Yes......... studying with so little evidence, and working only with the balance of probabilities and possibilities, that's all I've got.

Would it be rude to suggest that I don't see much from you but Faith?

I do value G-Mark together with many pericopes from the other gospels, but that's all I've got.

Not at all, friend. Faith is the basis of not only spiritual understanding, but of life itself. Where we place faith is what we "hope" will happen. When we go out and drive a car each day, we have faith and hope that we arrive home safely. Otherwise, we wouldn't go out at all.

Studying is great. Actions even greater. All man seeks a more abundant life. But faith gives more than material. I can attest to that personally, as I am happier living in a double wide that I rent, over the 5 bedroom beautiful home I had, on a lake, with a 28 ft boat, large camper, 3 cars, etc. 20 years ago. There was no end for achieving happiness through material things. Yet today I do not fear the taste of death, nor struggle in the world, which has influenced my "outlook" and "life" in a much more positive way. I enjoy the life I have in much greater detail, than where the system of the world was leading me. So, to me, the "faith" paid off in things unseen, rather the the "material" things seen.

This happiness was contagious, and what led me to an even greater relationship of those around me, and attracted my "soul mate" that makes my life even better. Faith, hope, works, was the key to a greater life, while having an outlook of even greater things.

It's a choice, and a gift. While many see it as a curse.

It's all in the "perspective".

 

[Phantasman]

Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yep. And why Jesus clarified that spiritual love has no place in material understanding. Like days (Sabbath) and parents (earthly names). Love is the spirit within us loving all spirit within others. And not the earthly judgments as to skin color, nationality, male, female, rich, poor, etc. etc.

John:
5 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

The Jews judged Jesus for works on the Sabbath. The works continued, the Sabbath didn't (until the priests brought it back).

Jesus shows love of the neighbor, over love of the law (Sabbath). And love of his true (spiritual) parents over the laws fleshly parents.

 

[BilliardsBall]

the word miracle could be somewhat like rapture. at one time it meant to be carried off in ecstasy, or happiness.

in one language the word miracle comes from the idea of to smile and laugh. something that brings happiness.

love seems to be capable of creating such an experience.

What does that have to with the miracles where God intervened in nature, for example, to rise from the dead, without which, none are saved?

 

[Fool]

What does that have to with the miracles where God intervened in nature, for example, to rise from the dead, without which, none are saved?

nature and god aren't mutually exclusive.

love saves all. love isn't selfish. to repent means to turn back to love from selfishness.

5 But the Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—everything from humankind to animals, including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

8 But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord.

 

[socharlie]

nature and god aren't mutually exclusive.

love saves all. love isn't selfish. to repent means to turn back to love from selfishness.

5 But the Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—everything from humankind to animals, including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

8 But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord.

God ordained Natural Law.

 

[Fool]

God ordained Natural Law.

to love is the law, is creative, is natural.

becoming more and more materialistic is the falling away from spirit to flesh, or worldly things.

 

[socharlie]

to love is the law, is creative, is natural.

becoming more and more materialistic is the falling away from spirit to flesh, or worldly things.

Natural Law is not materialistic only, it both physical and metaphysical - all. unfortunately many see only physical, I glad we do not.

 

[Phantasman]

God ordained Natural Law.

Doubt it.

Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law of flesh was given by the creator of flesh.

Those who followed the natural law, died. And those that had faith of the true God spoken of by the prophets (that was coming) were saved (at the resurrection of the dead, by Jesus when he went into Hades and saved them).

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Jesus (after the crucifixion) enters Hades to save those Jews that had died before him:

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.- Apocryphon of John

And the result were the saints who recognized Jesus by the prophets words, than the law:

Matthew:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15) started with the resurrection of Jesus. Not a moment before. The OT became fulfilled (by the prophets) and we no longer need, nor follow it. "It is finished".

 

[socharlie]

Doubt it.

Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The law of flesh was given by the creator of flesh.

Those who followed the natural law, died. And those that had faith of the true God spoken of by the prophets (that was coming) were saved (at the resurrection of the dead, by Jesus when he went into Hades and saved them).

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Jesus (after the crucifixion) enters Hades to save those Jews that had died before him:

"Still for a third time I went - I am the light which exists in the light, I am the remembrance of the Pronoia - that I might enter into the midst of darkness and the inside of Hades. And I filled my face with the light of the completion of their aeon. And I entered into the midst of their prison, which is the prison of the body. And I said, 'He who hears, let him get up from the deep sleep.' And he wept and shed tears. Bitter tears he wiped from himself and he said, 'Who is it that calls my name, and from where has this hope come to me, while I am in the chains of the prison?' And I said, 'I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thinking of the virginal Spirit, who raised you up to the honored place. Arise and remember that it is you who hearkened, and follow your root, which is I, the merciful one, and guard yourself against the angels of poverty and the demons of chaos and all those who ensnare you, and beware of the deep sleep and the enclosure of the inside of Hades.- Apocryphon of John

And the result were the saints who recognized Jesus by the prophets words, than the law:

Matthew:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15) started with the resurrection of Jesus. Not a moment before. The OT became fulfilled (by the prophets) and we no longer need, nor follow it. "It is finished".

Natural Law is everything, it covers physical and metaphysical events. From the point of "so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." Heb.11

 

[oldbadger]

Not at all, friend. Faith is the basis of not only spiritual understanding, but of life itself. Where we place faith is what we "hope" will happen. When we go out and drive a car each day, we have faith and hope that we arrive home safely. Otherwise, we wouldn't go out at all.

Studying is great. Actions even greater. All man seeks a more abundant life. But faith gives more than material. I can attest to that personally, as I am happier living in a double wide that I rent, over the 5 bedroom beautiful home I had, on a lake, with a 28 ft boat, large camper, 3 cars, etc. 20 years ago. There was no end for achieving happiness through material things. Yet today I do not fear the taste of death, nor struggle in the world, which has influenced my "outlook" and "life" in a much more positive way. I enjoy the life I have in much greater detail, than where the system of the world was leading me. So, to me, the "faith" paid off in things unseen, rather the the "material" things seen.

This happiness was contagious, and what led me to an even greater relationship of those around me, and attracted my "soul mate" that makes my life even better. Faith, hope, works, was the key to a greater life, while having an outlook of even greater things.

It's a choice, and a gift. While many see it as a curse.

It's all in the "perspective".

I once had a motor yacht, sea facing bungalow and MG Roadster.
Now we live in a tiny little place, share a little Panda car and I ride a bicycle everywhere. Never been so happy in life.

I can't remember how I got started but I study Historic Jesus. I have Christian and JW friends as well as (mostly) agnostics. English people mostly don't bother with religion unless they celebrate feasts or are frightened enough to call out.

I'm a Deist and at peace with that.

I liked your post, btw.

 

[Kenny]

Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes! And love God!

 

[socharlie]

Yes! And love God!

and God wants us to care - fulfill the Law...

 

[Phantasman]

I once had a motor yacht, sea facing bungalow and MG Roadster.
Now we live in a tiny little place, share a little Panda car and I ride a bicycle everywhere. Never been so happy in life.

Admirable way to be. I loved my '61 Austin Healey days as well (early 70s). Even though I always had something that had to be fixed, when it ran great, it felt great (driving beach side in Ft Lauderdale). lol.

While many people pressure and don't condone Deism, Atheists, etc., I only hold the view that many just haven't found what holds them to believe any other way. I am not a crusader to implore people to follow me or my beliefs. I respond to posts to provoke thought, my own as well as others. My mind is open to error if it can be shown to me, not merely told "You are in error".

Many who "argue" rather than debate, don't realize that in the end, we seek the same thing, even though we travel different paths to get there.

Dogmatism is spiritual understandings greatest enemy.

I had to look up a Panda car. I got an image that reminded me of my old English Ford Anglia ('62 I think). Another car I spent a lot of time fixing.

Add: I went here for Panda Panda car - Wikipedia

Then I continued to find out Fiat makes a little cute bug of a car. I'll assume this updated one is the car you speak of.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

I still enjoy driving my 1965 MG midget ....
sure I enjoyed restoring it ... though not so much the 14k I spent doing so.

 

[oldbadger]

That is what the Jews claimed.

The Quran tells us his mother was a temple woman. Apocryphal books tell us she was a "Temple Virgin" under the Highpriest Zacharius.

Holy Virgin was the title of the temple priestesses of Asherah,. We know from the Bible that Solomon brought back her worship in the temple! “Almah” was mistakenly translated as virgin, it meant a young unmarried woman. It is derived from the Persian Al-Mah, the unmated Moon-Goddess.

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary, written 300's AD, supposedly written by Matthew, and the Protevangelion, written by James, Yeshua's brother, one of Mary's other sons, tell us It was custom after their service to the Temple, to give the Temple "Virgins" in marriage to prominent men of the community, usually nobles. That is probably how she ends up betrothed to old Joseph. But she is already pregnant!

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 67a) tells us the father of Jesus was a Roman archer from Tyre named Panthera. The blue eyed, golden headed idea of Jesus isn’t modern. Somewhere I’ve saved a quote supposedly from a Roman who saw Jesus. I’ll try to find it.

Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in circa A.D. 178, said that he heard from a Jew that 'Miriam' had become pregnant by 'Pantheras,' a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret.

"It happened with R. Elazar ben Damah, whom a serpent bit, that Jacob, a man of Kefar Soma, came to heal him in the name of Yeshua ben Pantera; but R. Ishmael did not let him. He said, "You are not permitted, Ben Damah." He answered, "I will bring you proof that he may heal me." But he had no opportunity to bring proof, for he died. (Whereupon) R. Ishmael said, "Happy art thou, Ben Damah, for you have gone in peace and you have not broken down the fence of the Sages; since everyone who breaks down the fence of the Sages, to him punishment will ultimately come, as it is in Scripture: 'Whoso breaketh through a fence, a serpent shall bite him.'" (Tosefta Hullin 2.22; Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbath 14d and Abodah Zarah 40d, 41a; Babylonian Talmud, Abodah Zarah 27b)

According to the Jews he was the son of 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, a Roman archer, who in 9 c.e. was transferred to service in Germany where he died.

*

I copied the lot.
Somehow I got that Roman's name wrong, I thought it was Patronus, but reading 'Pantera' or 'Panthera' I knew that you were right.

The 'blond hair and blue eyes' description by that soldier is a new report for me. I had always thought that Western Christians would prefer a Eurasian-film-star appearance than a Galilean Peasant of the early 1st century.

Wow! All good info to think about.

 

[oldbadger]

Admirable way to be. I loved my '61 Austin Healey days as well (early 70s). Even though I always had something that had to be fixed, when it ran great, it felt great (driving beach side in Ft Lauderdale). lol.

While many people pressure and don't condone Deism, Atheists, etc., I only hold the view that many just haven't found what holds them to believe any other way. I am not a crusader to implore people to follow me or my beliefs. I respond to posts to provoke thought, my own as well as others. My mind is open to error if it can be shown to me, not merely told "You are in error".

Many who "argue" rather than debate, don't realize that in the end, we seek the same thing, even though we travel different paths to get there.

Dogmatism is spiritual understandings greatest enemy.

I had to look up a Panda car. I got an image that reminded me of my old English Ford Anglia ('62 I think). Another car I spent a lot of time fixing.

Add: I went here for Panda Panda car - Wikipedia

Then I continued to find out Fiat makes a little cute bug of a car. I'll assume this updated one is the car you speak of.

Austin Healey 3000. Yes, they needed constant love and care, but an amazing beast. Today they are hugely collectable.

Yes, I had forgotten about Police Pandas! We have shared a Fiat Panda for over many years now, trying to keep up with model changes.

I didn't choose Deism, it wasn't a decision either. It just flowed into me somehow. I am at peace with it. But I don't need to sell it to anyone because it isn't that kind of condition.

A Christian who lives Christianity may make a bigger difference to the World than a Christian who evangelises, maybe? There are so many Churches, Creeds and Denominations that variation of Faith can be huge, yes?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Did Paul corrupt Christianity ?

To answer your Thread.

That all depends who you are ?

As for coming from a Christian point of view, No.