1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Did Paul Corrupt Christianity?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Actually, the Sadducee's died out due to the first Jewish revolt, and council at Jerusalem. It was through the Pharisee's that the OT was adopted into the gospel message.Something that Paul rejected (Incident at Antioch) as well as Marcion and Valentinus. This was the creation of the schism of early Christianity. Lasting until the 4th century, when the orthodox ideology became the Roman Empires church, and all others eliminated.
     
  2. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  3. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
    If to what you say is right, Then why was it, that Emperor Pilate wanted to free Jesus ?
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian

    Not all Jews wanted to kill Jesus, only the Unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Jesus.
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,725
    Ratings:
    +5,231
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    No Pilate gave the people a choice, which is a questionable story, regardless Jesus Christ was convicted of treason and a rebel under Roman Law.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
    But before Pilate wanted to release Jesus but then the people wanted Jesus to be crucified, So Pilate gave into the people and then Jesus was nailed to the cross.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,725
    Ratings:
    +5,231
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Again, Pilate never indicated he 'wanted' to free Jesus. He was convicted of crimes where the penalty was execution by crucifixion. He may (questionable story) offered the people a choice, the people chose and Jesus was crucified under Roman Law.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,725
    Ratings:
    +5,231
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    . . . and this represents the Hellenist Roman version we have today
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Maybe, maybe not.

    John 8:

    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Read between the lines. As the Jews were being taught the truth (that they were following the wrong (path to) God), by the end, the "believing Jews" fell back and tried to stone Jesus.

    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    It was difficult to take the Jews (who followed dead men) and make them see him as true life.

    The words in John 8 were not in the former synoptic gospels, which is why they were important. The gospel of John aligns with non canon gnosis in greater detail and so does Paul and 1 John.
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    I find the Gospel of Nicodemus (aka Acts of Pilate) a better spiritual understanding of the event that led to the Crucifixion.

    The trial was more in detail and it was clear that Pilate was afraid, after hearing the news of Jesus bringing back Lazarus. Pilate only appeased the Jews according to their laws, that Rome honored, to keep peace.

    It also used to surprise me that in Canon, Jesus never answered the question "What is truth?" from Pilate. Not trusting those who controlled the ink of the gospel for 800 years, I find Nicodemus more reliable in truth by Jesus' answer that appears, than the silence in Canon. Silence opens the door for returning to priests (as truth), when Jesus answer clearly shuts it.

    2 And Pilate went in again into the judgement hall and called Jesus apart and said unto him: Art thou the King of the Jews? Jesus answered and said to Pilate: Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? Pilate answered Jesus: Am I also a Jew? thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world; for if my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have striven that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate said unto him: Art thou a king, then? Jesus answered him: Thou sayest that I am a king; for this cause was I born and am come, that every one that is of the truth should hear my voice. Pilate saith unto him: What is truth? Jesus saith unto him: Truth is of heaven. Pilate saith: Is there not truth upon earth? Jesus saith unto Pilate: Thou seest how that they which speak the truth are judged of them that have authority upon earth.- Acts of Pilate Part 3

    The Gospel of Nicodemus
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  12. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,482
    Ratings:
    +901
    Religion:
    Judaism
    No. Paul claimed these things but his own testimony belies these as false. Paul was not a Jewish scribe and certainly no scholar. His frequent mangling of basic Hebrew texts shows he was either misunderstanding clear texts or deliberately on misinterpreting them. As for being a student of Gamaliel it is clear he wasn’t. Gamaliel taught to leave the Christians alone (according to Acts), while Saul (later Paul) sought to kill them. So was Paul such a great student that he tried to do the opposite of his teacher?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    That's just too funny.

    The scripture says "those Jews which believed on him" and you say that they were "unbelieving Jews".

    Which one should I see? Hmm. I'll take the scripture. John 8:44 is Jesus telling the "Jews that SAID they believed on him, that:
    1, they weren't free John 8:36
    2. that Abraham didn't give them truth from God the Father John 8:40
    3. that they were following the devil John 8:44
    4. they were ignorant of the Spirit that was speaking in him John 8:43
    5. Jesus was "In the beginning" (Holy Spirit within him) John 8:58

    When Jesus made himself above Abraham, the Jews turned on him to stone him. John 8:59

    Jesus wanted them to leave Abrahamic ideology, because Abraham didn't get his "bread" (knowledge) from heaven. The Holy Spirit (truth) that was within Jesus was never within any man before Jesus. Only after Jesus (arisen). Gnosis is knowledge of/from the Spirit. It never spoke until it entered Jesus, the Christ. If they (Jews) listen to Abraham and Moses instead of Jesus, they were following the "angel of light" rather than the "true light" that Jesus was. Darkness and Light. Ignorance and Knowledge. Flesh and Spirit. God and mammon.

    I cannot make it much clearer than that.

    And the priests get wealthy and powerful from this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
     
    #134 Faithofchristian, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  15. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    "I am" was neither Jesus or the Father. Jesus always referred to himself as the "son" and God as "our/the Father". You take "i am" once in the OT and once in "John" and make a false connection of two words. How many times did Jesus say that he "was" I am. None. He didn't say "before Abraham was, I was", then that would mean he "was" and not "is".

    "I am" brought destruction and murder. The Father and Son brought neither.

    You "want" to live in ignorance of Spirit. What little truth the Jews had, was taken from them and given to the world. Christianity was a path to save the world, while Judaism was the Jews religion to save the Jews.

    John 7:
    34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

    35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

    36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

    You just don't see that it. You move yourself back into the Judaism that will never find Christ. You seek him, you think you know who he is, (a fleshly storybook character).

    Galatians 1:
    11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


    Until you separate yourself yourself from your mothers womb, you are of the flesh, and the Spirit evades you.

    Paul left the Jews to teach to the heathen (Gentiles) as the Spirit of God revealed Christ within him.

    The Jews are gone. Judaism is gone. The OT is gone. Only Christ is truth. To go backward, is to enter the womb (flesh), not be free, and not find the Son. Leaving the Gospel to believe in the OT is spiritual suicide. There is nothing there of value. The Father never spoke to anyone and the Holy Spirit hadn't been given. That's Jesus words, not mine.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian

    So you say, doesn't mean a thing, You just show your lack of knowledge of understanding. When Jesus said, before Abraham was I Am, Jesus was proclaiming to be the Almighty God.
    That's why those Jews pick up stones to stone Jesus. Because Jesus was claiming to be God.

    Even Mary the mother of Jesus said in
    Luke 1:47--"And my spirit hath rejoiced in
    God my Saviour"

    Therefore even Mary profess God as Saviour, Which Christ Jesus is Saviour and God.
     
    #136 Faithofchristian, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  17. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,963
    Ratings:
    +466
    Religion:
    Christian gnosis
    Luke 1:
    41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

    42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

    43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    John:
    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Which is it? How could Elizabeth (John the Baptists mother) be filled with the Holy Ghost if Jesus hadn't even given it? Luke never walked with Jesus. John did. The words are corrupted. It's one reason Marcion trimmed Luke to remove any attachment to Jewish analogies.

    Galatians:
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    The Canon is of the corrupt world. Without spiritual gnosis, you are blind, believing that the Bible is every word of God.

    It's filled with truth and error. And without the Spirit, "all truth" will evade you, and you follow the men who created this abomination.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian

    What I would like you to do, is explain just how exactly those people back at the time, when Jesus was here on earth, how they could haved went by the New Testament, When in fact,
    the New Testament hadn't even been written yet.

    Therefore those people back there, only had the Old Testament to go by.The New Testament had not been written yet.
    So when you refer to those people back there, remember they only had the Old Testament to go by.

    The New Testament had Not been written, until about 70 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus.
     
    #138 Faithofchristian, Dec 27, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  19. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,950
    Ratings:
    +2,657
    Religion:
    "Post" Christian, likely Deist
    No, what Jews wanted was irrelevant because they had little to no power. This is all to cover up for the fact that Christianity turned to the gentiles and the gentiles killed Jesus. Historical Pilate was so evil that the Roman Empire, itself an evil empire, banished him for being a jerk. Well, and he couldn't keep Jews under control, so there's that, too. The reality is that Jesus got swept up in Roman crackdowns. That's it. He was executed as a religious/political terrorist, a charge not completely unjustified after Jesus' little tantrum in the Temple. He went around like ISIS, bragging about how the evil empire was gonna cut him down because they hate God or something, and Romans were only too happy to oblige because they are willing to line entire roads with crosses.

    This is out of character for the historical Pilate, who had no issues with killing anyone he wanted. And Pilate wasn't even emperor, just some two-bit governor. Tiberius was emperor.

    Pro-Roman Christian propaganda. We have too many things from Rome's own documentation to suggest Pilate was a nice guy. THEY hated him.

    Do you believe in any of the messiahs running around the internet nowadays? If not, why not?

    Would be messiahs were a dime a dozen in Roman Judea. You wouldn't have believed him automatically either.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,461
    Ratings:
    +523
    Religion:
    Christian
     
Loading...