Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

I have never heard you claim that you are a Homo Sapien therefore are you not a human? The same way I conclude you are human even though you did not say so is by your actions and capabilities.

This is a strawman argument.

The same way many Christians determine Christ was Divine. He accepted worship, forgave sin, and had supernatural power.

Any abilities he said he had he said his god gave him. This hardly constitutes him being "God".

RSV Bible

Matthew 28:17-18
And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

I am not saying I personally know he was God I am saying that it is a reasonable conclusion

Actually it's not safe to conclude this. While it's safe to "assume" he was it's hardly what he taught his followers.

and Islam's silly and irrational tests used to deny his Divinity are meaningless and irrelevant.

No more silly than the multitude of Christian sects who can't agree whether Yeshua was "god" or not. ALL of Islam, regardless of sect, are in agreement that Isa (Yeshua) is not "God"...nor did he ever claim to be and it was something he never taught those that followed him.

There are good reasons to conclude Christ is not God as well but they are not the ones Islam mentions.

Islam and Judaism are consistent in that "God" has no partners, no consort, no physical children and nothing is equal to "God". Not only does the OT teach this but it's taught in the Quran......:sad:

 

[paarsurrey]

Did Jesus say he was God?

How could Jesus say that he was a god; Jesus created nothing and was so helpless that Jews put him on the cross?

 

[1robin]

This is a strawman argument.

No it isn't it is a logical inference and is applicable. Setting up a standrad that is both arbitrary and designed to cause a false failure is invalid. Most things are known by their effects and characteristics. Elephants do not say they are elephants, planets do not say they are planets, Black holes do not declare their identity yet they are referred to as such every day.

Any abilities he said he had he said his god gave him. This hardly constitutes him being "God".

I disagree some what but that isn't the point. I said the test given is invalid. I did not say what the actual fact of the matter is.

RSV Bible

Matthew 28:17-18
And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.



Actually it's not safe to conclude this. While it's safe to "assume" he was it's hardly what he taught his followers.



No more silly than the multitude of Christian sects who can't agree whether Yeshua was "god" or not. ALL of Islam, regardless of sect, are in agreement that Isa (Yeshua) is not "God"...nor did he ever claim to be and it was something he never taught those that followed him.



Islam and Judaism are consistent in that "God" has no partners, no consort, no physical children and nothing is equal to "God". Not only does the OT teach this but it's taught in the Quran......:sad:

I do not care. I thought I made it clear, that I do not defend either position. Both have competent claims. My comments concerned the nature of a specific way the conclusion was determined. It is invalid and that is undeniable. Whether Jesus is God is another issue and infinately debateable.

 

[1robin]

Did Jesus say he was God?

How could Jesus say that he was a god; Jesus created nothing and was so helpless that Jews put him on the cross?

Now this is just about as false as possible.
New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

As far the crucifixion: Jesus said he could call down legions of angels and wipe them all out if he desired but he had determined to do this before the foundation of the earth. He also scolded Peter for trying to talk him out of it. Not least he demostrated his power over them by rising again. Nothing indicates he was incapable of avoiding what happened. By the way the Jews did not put him on the cross the Romans did. I do not think a single word in that post was accurate.

 

[paarsurrey]

Now this is just about as false as possible.
New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

As far the crucifixion: Jesus said he could call down legions of angels and wipe them all out if he desired but he had determined to do this before the foundation of the earth. He also scolded Peter for trying to talk him out of it. Not least he demostrated his power over them by rising again. Nothing indicates he was incapable of avoiding what happened. By the way the Jews did not put him on the cross the Romans did. I do not think a single word in that post was accurate.

What I have coloured in magenta was not written by Jesus or spoken and/or dictated by Jesus to an authorised truthful person before the event of crucifixion; and it is definitely not Word from the one true attributive creator God, in my opinion.

 

[otokage007]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.
Words of Jesus
John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Jesus is not a reliable source of evidences about God's existence

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

-Omnipresence: if God is everywhere, why is that I can not see him? hmmmm :/....
-Omniscience: if God knows everything, he knows future, and if he knows future, future is written, and if future is written... Is free-will an illusion? HM! :/!!!
-Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, can he create a rock that he can not lift? HMMM :/!!!

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Harry potter did more impressive things than those...

 

[1robin]

What I have coloured in magenta was not written by Jesus or spoken and/or dictated by Jesus to an authorised truthful person before the event of crucifixion; and it is definitely not Word from the one true attributive creator God, in my opinion.

Prove even a single claim here. You claim to know it should not be hard.

 

[Shermana]

What I have coloured in magenta was not written by Jesus or spoken and/or dictated by Jesus to an authorised truthful person before the event of crucifixion; and it is definitely not Word from the one true attributive creator God, in my opinion.

Colossians 1:15-16 is referring to a long-forgotten concept that the Logos was the co-creator in Creation, which is clearly explained in Wisdom of Solomon chapters 7-9, this is also elaborated in PHilo's writings on the Logos Theology. (Most Jews whose John's intended audience was were probably well familiar with Philo and the Logos Theology and this is observable since little explanation is given beyond the first chapter of the concepts so it's assumed they already understood this widespread idea) This is well discussed in this thread, but since it's buried, I will re-explain:

It says that all things were made THROUGH Jesus. Not BY but THROUGH. Big difference. The idea is that Jesus is the co-creator and God is the CEO. In this logic, the Genesis account has creation being ORDERED by God, but the work being done by Angels. From this base story comes some of the later Gnostic ideas, but it seems to have been mostly forgotten as the idea of the Logos was incorporated into Trinitarian dogma as a part of God himself and not separate, even though the original Jews from Philo's time and before seemed to believe that "Wisdom" (i.e. The Logos) was a totally separate entity, a lesser "god", an Angel. The Highest angel. The 'Firstborn of Creation". Again, this is clearly explained in "Wisdom of Solomon", I can imagine that this is one of the reasons Protestants don't accept its canonicity. God is still the Chief God and the Master Creator, but he has his Angels get the work experience. This is also discussed in Proverbs 8-9 but you'll see a lot of argument saying it's totally metaphorical....but it's not.

Without this understanding, it can be very difficult to get past some of the snags in John, and it's already difficult enough explaining it as is.

But I agree that Colossians (and the other "Pauline epistles") had absolutely no inspiration from Jesus. It is the burden of the Christian to explain why. It seems not even the Early Church fathers all regarded Paul's writings as "Inspired" but as Wisdom works, although this too is debatable.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No it isn't it is a logical inference and is applicable. Setting up a standrad that is both arbitrary and designed to cause a false failure is invalid. Most things are known by their effects and characteristics. Elephants do not say they are elephants, planets do not say they are planets, Black holes do not declare their identity yet they are referred to as such every day.

Logical fallacy....and you need to stop.

If I walked into a room wearing robe and a crown is is logical to "conclude" I'm a prince or a king even though I didn't present myself as such? NO....characteristics will only get you but so far. When Yeshua says..."YOU are the one true god and I am the Messiah whom you have sent".....no one should "conclude" or assume Yeshua was praying to himself and talking about himself. If you did it no one would conclude you're "God".......:sad:

I disagree some what but that isn't the point.

Yet it's right there in their scripture as to what he said.

I said the test given is invalid. I did not say what the actual fact of the matter is.

Then you the odd man out because this thread is dealing with the facts and how they're interpreted.

I do not care. I thought I made it clear

So we agree you're bringing nothing new to the debate.....

Whether Jesus is God is another issue and infinately debateable.

See thread title and history of the thread you will quickly realize you're stating the obvious.

 

[1robin]

Jesus is not a reliable source of evidences about God's existence

He demostrated the exact opposite and that is recorded in reliable witness testimony. The same kind used in all court cases today.

-Omnipresence: if God is everywhere, why is that I can not see him? hmmmm :/....

A 12 year old Sunday school student knows that God is not material and can't be seen unless he adopts a material form.

-Omniscience: if God knows everything, he knows future, and if he knows future, future is written, and if future is written... Is free-will an illusion? HM! :/!!!

This might require a teenager. Knowing what someone will choose has no bearing on influencing that choice. This is an unkowable area and at least I will admit it. Nothing meaningfull can be known about the knowledge of the future , we do not have access to it.

-Omnipotence: If God is omnipotent, can he create a rock that he can not lift? HMMM :/!!!

This is so silly, I do not even hear young bible critics use this thing any more. Here is a whole site pointing how rediculous and trivial this question is:


Weight isn't a factor in whether God can lift the rock or not - it's just as easy for Him to lift a small rock as a big one (like, er, Yoda). This question is like asking 'Could He make a rock so blue He couldn't lift it?' - it's a nonsense.
No

• For the purpose of this argument, assume God exists and is omnipotent (subject to the restrictions of logic).

• If God is omnipotent, surely he can lift any rock.
• A rock which God cannot lift, therefore, cannot possibly exist. Its existence would contradict God's omnipotence.
• Because, in this argument, God is constrained by logic, God cannot create something that cannot exist.
• Because a rock God cannot create cannot exist, God cannot create one.

Note that, by "subject to the restrictions of logic," I mean that God would be unable to do anything that is logically impossible.For example, a square circle cannot logically exist; a square has four sides, while a circle has only one, and clearlynothing can have four sides and one side. Therefore, a God subject to the restrictions of logic would be unable to create one.-CSGuy 17:54, 29 October 2008 (EDT)http://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:Could_God_create_a_rock_so_heavy_that_he_himself_could_not_lift_it%3F#Here.27s_why_the_question_is_wrong

Harry potter did more impressive things than those...

Provide me four eyewitness testimonies to Harry Potter's actions that those same people would die to defend the truth of. What is the obsession with Harry Potter lately. I expect more sophisticated arguments? The subjects deserves it.

 

[1robin]

Logical fallacy....and you need to stop.

If I walked into a room wearing robe and a crown is is logical to "conclude" I'm a prince or a king even though I didn't present myself as such? NO....characteristics will only get you but so far

No, comparing two unequal things and condemning them both based on the faulty one is a fallacy. However I find it more honorable and usefull to state why and not just appeal to latin and declare victory. No one would ever conclude a person is a king by what they wear alone. Just as Jesus is not declared God based only on what he wore. There is probably no more scrutinised claim in the world. If Jesus did exist before the foundation of the world, healed people, raised the dead, walked on water, FORGAVE SINS, accepted worship, claimed to have created everything, came back from the dead etc... etc.... It is not a fallacy to believe he was God. It is not even unreasonable. It is a justified position. Just as claiming he is not is a justifiable position.

. When Yeshua says..."YOU are the one true god and I am the Messiah whom you have sent".....no one should "conclude" or assume Yeshua was praying to himself and talking about himself. If you did it no one would conclude you're "God".......:sad:

What can I say in addition to I do not have a position and was only commenting on the meaningless Islamic test for it. I do not care. It is apparent you care way too much.

Then you the odd man out because this thread is dealing with the facts and how they're interpreted.

Guilty. My point still stands about the test and that is all I cared about.

So we agree you're bringing nothing new to the debate.....

Nothing but the fact that that test is an invalid method to determine the truth of the issue. You are volatile.

 

[Shermana]

FORGAVE SINS

This issue is often emphasized as alleged proof of Jesus's divinity. So what do you make of Jesus allegedly giving this power which he says was GIVEN to him, to his disciples?

 

[1robin]

This issue is often emphasized as alleged proof of Jesus's divinity. So what do you make of Jesus allegedly giving this power which he says was GIVEN to him, to his disciples?

I will have to research it. I do agree that, that is the case though. Keep in mind I do not defend or condemn Jesus being God just the arguments involved. However I might check into this out of curiosity.

 

[paarsurrey]

This issue is often emphasized as alleged proof of Jesus's divinity. So what do you make of Jesus allegedly giving this power which he says was GIVEN to him, to his disciples?

Jesus was a human being; he was not given the power of forgiving to the sinners on his own; this power is vested with the one true attributive creator God only.

My religion tells me this:

[39:54] Say, “O My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Jesus had no power to forgive sins of the sinners, in my opinion.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus did exist before the foundation of the world, healed people, raised the dead, walked on water, FORGAVE SINS, accepted worship, claimed to have created everything, came back from the dead etc... etc.... It is not a fallacy to believe he was God. It is not even unreasonable. It is a justified position. Just as claiming he is not is a justifiable position.

Ok, so let's take them as they're presented in their scripture.

"exist before the foundation of the world"

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

"healed people"

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

John 11:22 (Martha said....)
But I know, that even now, whatsoever you will ask of God, God will give it you.

It doesn't sound like she was under impression Yeshua was "God"

John 17:2
As you have given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

So we know from clear explicit statements Yeshua didn't view himself as "God" nor can we find any verse of him teaching his followers he was.

One should hardly conclude that just because Yeshua says he existed before the world was created he is "God". In his prayer to his god here you can clearly see he isn't.

"walked on water"

This event may not even have happened but was most likely exaggerated. But even for the sake of assumption it did then this falls in line with Matthew 28:18

"Forgave sins"

Again, this is inline with Matthew 28:18 as well as John 17:2

"Accepted Worship"

Ahh yes. It depends on the context and how you interpret the word "worship" in the NT.

"claimed to have created everything"

I don't ever remember seeing a quote from Yeshua on this. Do you have a reference?

"came back from the dead"

Again, this is something that may not have happened but since it's in their scripture I tend to scrutinize this claim and I take it with a grain of salt. The supposed earliest of the Manuscripts, Mark, uses the word "risen". It can be interpreted as risen from the dead or that the person simply got up from where they laid.

So when you examine those scriptures there's no "justification" that Yeshua is "God".....:sad:

Guilty. My point still stands about the test and that is all I cared about.

Was that test listed in this thread or another? I'd like to look at it to see what logic was behind it.

 

[1robin]

Ok, so let's take them as they're presented in their scripture.

"exist before the foundation of the world"

What is driving this obsession of proving to someone who doesn't care that a position he does not defend is false?

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify you, me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

"healed people"

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

John 11:22 (Martha said....)
But I know, that even now, whatsoever you will ask of God, God will give it you.

It doesn't sound like she was under impression Yeshua was "God"

References to Christ diminished status taken on voluntarily while in human form for our sake as an example and clearly indicated in the bible are not relevant to dismis his divinity. By the way diminished from what?

John 17:2
As you have given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

So we know from clear explicit statements Yeshua didn't view himself as "God" nor can we find any verse of him teaching his followers he was.

One should hardly conclude that just because Yeshua says he existed before the world was created he is "God".

Name another non - divine entity that did so. He surely is no normal human.

"walked on water"

This event may not even have happened but was most likely exaggerated. But even for the sake of assumption it did then this falls in line with Matthew 28:18

Of course it may not have happened. Ceaser may not have existed, Homer may have been many people, one person, or no one. There is more evidence supporting the bible than these but they are taught as fact and the bible is not. You are viewing this in isolation and a miracle alone is not enough to establish Divinity but in a list that contains all the reasons. There is more than enough to justify the conclusion but as I said I do not conclude anything.

"Forgave sins"

Again, this is inline with Matthew 28:18 as well as John 17:2

"Accepted Worship"

Ahh yes. It depends on the context and how you interpret the word "worship" in the NT.

In other words there exists a loophole by which the obvious but inconvenient may be arbitrarily dismissed.

"claimed to have created everything"

I don't ever remember seeing a quote from Yeshua on this. Do you have a reference?

New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
There are dozens that say the same thing.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Four things are here asserted:
1. That Jesus Christ is the Creator of the universe; of all things visible and invisible; of all things that had a beginning, whether they exist in time or in eternity.
2. That whatsoever was created was created For himself; that he was the sole end of his own work.
3. That he was prior to all creation, to all beings, whether in the visible or invisible world. 4. That he is the preserver and governor of all things; for by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

"came back from the dead"

Again, this is something that may not have happened but since it's in their scripture I tend to scrutinize this claim and I take it with a grain of salt. The supposed earliest of the Manuscripts, Mark, uses the word "risen". It can be interpreted as risen from the dead or that the person simply got up from where they laid.

Armand Nicholi, of Harvard Medical School, speaks of J. N. D. Anderson as "...a scholar of international repute and one eminently qualified to deal with the subject of evidence. He is one of the world's leading authorities on Islamic law...He is dean of the faculty of law in the University of London, chairman of the department of Oriental law at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and director of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies in the University of London."
This outstanding British scholar who is today influential in the field of international jurisprudence says: "The evidence for the historical basis of the Christian faith, for the essential validity of the New Testament witness to the person and teaching of Christ Himself, for the fact and significance of His atoning death, and for the historicity of the empty tomb and the apostolic testimony to the resurrection, is such as to provide an adequate foundation for the venture of faith."

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), English scholar who was appointed regius professor at Cambridge in 1870, said: "Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of if."
Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, well said, "Christianity knew its Saviour and REdeemer not as some god whose history was contained in a mythical faith, with rude, primitive, and even offensive elements...Jesus was a historical not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself of the Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and acceptable facts."
Benjamin Warfield of Princeton expressed in his article, "The Resurrection of Christ an Historical Fact, Evinced by Eye-Witnesses":
Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2
There are dozens and dozens of these experts all claiming that the bible record concerning Jesus is more solid than any other figure in ancient history at that site.

So when you examine those scriptures there's no "justification" that Yeshua is "God".....

The mere assertion of this especially lacking any justified explenation above that shows it or indicates it has no power to make it so.

Was that test listed in this thread or another? I'd like to look at it to see what logic was behind it.

Are you talking about the Islamic "Jesus never said I am God Worship me" test?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What is driving this obsession of proving to someone who doesn't care that a position he does not defend is false?

You got me!....I'm not sure why one would enter a debate thread and take the peculiar stance that he has no defense either way. Maybe your comments are suitable for the various threads here at RF that are not in the debate section.....:areyoucra

References to Christ diminished status taken on voluntarily while in human form for our sake as an example and clearly indicated in the bible are not relevant to dismis his divinity. By the way diminished from what?

You got me!...I never understood the trinitatian thinking on this. There's no scriputal evidence to support such a notion.

Name another non - divine entity that did so. He surely is no normal human.

I can give you plenty of "divine" people...(non-biblically speaking)...

Of course it may not have happened. Ceaser may not have existed, Homer may have been many people, one person, or no one. There is more evidence supporting the bible than these but they are taught as fact and the bible is not. You are viewing this in isolation and a miracle alone is not enough to establish Divinity but in a list that contains all the reasons. There is more than enough to justify the conclusion but as I said I do not conclude anything.

But that's just it. I'm not debating this from a fiction position. I'm taking it at face value. I'm not doubting the walking on water or rising from the dead or healing the sick. I'm simply dealing with the thread question....and the conclusion from Yeshua's own lips, scriptually speaking, was that he had a god above him whom he prayed to...who sent him to Earth with a task to complete. I simply think anything beyond that is speculation.

In other words there exists a loophole by which the obvious but inconvenient may be arbitrarily dismissed.

No. There are many forms of worship but as you investigate the claim that Yeshua was worshiped one soon realizes that he wasn't (prayed to)...rather he was shown reverence. The English is horrible sometimes in translation.

[URL="http://niv.scripturetext.com/colossians/1.htm"]New International Version

(©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
There are dozens that say the same thing.
[/URL]Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Four things are here asserted:
1. That Jesus Christ is the Creator of the universe; of all things visible and invisible; of all things that had a beginning, whether they exist in time or in eternity.
2. That whatsoever was created was created For himself; that he was the sole end of his own work.
3. That he was prior to all creation, to all beings, whether in the visible or invisible world. 4. That he is the preserver and governor of all things; for by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The argument still follows. This is Paul's interpretation of a man he never met. Even still, his position on Yeshua is contrary to the words in their bible that are attributed to Yeshua.

There are dozens and dozens of these experts all claiming that the bible record concerning Jesus is more solid than any other figure in ancient history at that site.

You're arguing a moot point here. I'm not contesting the historicity of Yeshua.....at least not in this thread....

The mere assertion of this especially lacking any justified explenation above that shows it or indicates it has no power to make it so.

Yet I made it...the justification for it is laid out right there in their four gospels.

Are you talking about the Islamic "Jesus never said I am God Worship me" test?

I guess...if that's the one you're eluding to in your previous post. I don't think I've ever heard of it. I'm well aware of the stance the Quran takes regarding Isa. Beyond the Quran everything else seems to be mere commentary. Many Muslims try to rationalize Isa not being "God"...but I find their arguments to Christians falling on def ears.

 

[Shermana]

The argument still follows. This is Paul's interpretation of a man he never met. Even still, his position on Yeshua is contrary to the words in their bible that are attributed to Yeshua.

I'm not quite sure if Paul was completely wrong about what Jesus was in regards to Philo's "Logos Theology" and the concepts in Proverbs and WoS about "Wisdom" as the Firstborn personified being. But I'm more than quite sure that it's not meant to be interpreted outside of those parameters. I think almost every single one of Paul's "Trinity prooftexts" has some disputed grammar issues.

 

[otokage007]

It's not like i'm very into the Bible, but isn't Jesus "God on Earth"?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's not like i'm very into the Bible, but isn't Jesus "God on Earth"?

You're not alone because many are not very into the Bible.
Clergy often teach non-biblical religious myths as Scripture.- Acts 20 vs 29,30

If God was Jesus on earth, how would God fit on earth because 1st Kings [8 v 27] in part mentions the heaven of heavens canNot contain God......

Jesus in Revelation [ 1 v 5; 3 v 14 ] thinks he is the beginning of the creation by God.

According to Psalm [90 v 2] God had No beginning meaning No starting point.
Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
No Scripture says God sent himself to earth, but rather that God sent his Son here.

Back in heaven, after God resurrected Jesus back to heaven [ Acts 2 v 31 ],
the heavenly Jesus according to Revelation [ 2 v 18 ] still thinks he is the Son of God, and that according to Revelation [ 3 v 12 ] Jesus still thinks he has a God over him.