Did Jesus say he was God???

[URAVIP2ME]

Second, I don't know if you ever read this, but here it is: The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).
2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.
3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.
4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.
5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.
6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.
7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.
8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.
10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.
b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.
​

11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.
There are two problems with this claim:

a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
​

To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;
​

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
​

Also see Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus?

I was wondering why in the ^above^ post there is no mention of:
Daniel 9 vs 25,26 ?

Doesn't Mashiach [Moshiachah] apply exclusively to the coming Messiah ?

 

[look3467]

Dodging the question seems to be a specialty among "Christians" these days. The best you came up with is "Maybe he gets in a bind". What kind of bind would someone have to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling?

Referencing?

Blessings, AJ

 

[Falcon]

Did Jesus say He was God?

Yes, He said this to His Apostles and the people and while under oath in the Sanhedrin court:
" I and the Father are one " { John 10 v 30.]

 

[DinChild]

Just throwing this out there...Is there any record of this outside of biblical sources?

 

[Falcon]

Yes, read the works of the early Christians.

 

[DinChild]

Yes, read the works of the early Christians.

Could you refer me? From what you just said, being that it's from early Christians, that's not entirely what I'm asking for.

 

[Adonis65]

But you see, the bible tells me this: Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

And see, the Bible also tells you this: Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

See, first you labour (faithfully), then you rest. :yes:

 

[look3467]

And see, the Bible also tells you this: Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

See, first you labour (faithfully), then you rest. :yes:

The "therefore" meaning, the enabling is there, go for it!
But the laboring for it is not the same as working for it because Jesus already did it for us, the enabler.

Our laboring then is in seeking Him out and when we do find Him, we have His works as our own.

What has to be distinguished, or separated are our works from Gods works. Our works only give us our reaping of what we sow, accountable and payable in the flesh.

God's works are all together different in that He grants us His righteous works via Jesus as our works enabling us to receive life. The tree of life if we reach for it to eat of its fruit.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Jesus is the tree of life that we should labor to seek with our hearts, mind and soul.

That kind of labor is not physical but spiritual.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Adonis65]

The "therefore" meaning, the enabling is there, go for it!
But the laboring for it is not the same as working for it because Jesus already did it for us, the enabler.

Wrong. The "therefore" meaning "for that reason". Labour and work are synonymous, therefore, we must keep God's commandments, or there is no rest.

Our laboring then is in seeking Him out and when we do find Him, we have His works as our own.

Wrong. Our labour is to seek Him out, have faith, recognize our sins, repent of those sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then dedicate our lives to keeping His commandments.

What has to be distinguished, or separated are our works from Gods works. Our works only give us our reaping of what we sow, accountable and payable in the flesh.

Wrong. Our works determine whether we love God enough to keep His commandments. Our lack of works shows that we love Satan enough to ignore God and rest on our disobedience.

God's works are all together different in that He grants us His righteous works via Jesus as our works enabling us to receive life. The tree of life if we reach for it to eat of its fruit.

And it takes effort, as in faithful adherence to His commandments, to eat of that fruit.

Jesus is the tree of life that we should labor to seek with our hearts, mind and soul.

That kind of labor is not physical but spiritual.

Blessings, AJ

It's both. That's why we're both physical and spiritual beings. One cannot be without the other.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes, read the works of the early Christians.

"early christians" debated heavily over the supposed divinity of Yeshua. They are hardly a reliable source considering they compromised over the identity of the biblical Yeshua.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Did Jesus say He was God?

Yes, He said this to His Apostles and the people and while under oath in the Sanhedrin court:
" I and the Father are one " { John 10 v 30.]

One in purpose is not the same as one in the same.....

John 17:21,24
That they all may be one as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.

The biblical Yeshua is not talking about being "God". He is praying to his god and confirming the oneness of purpose they share as he hoped the disciples shared that same oneness. Also take note as to how he prays to his god. He's not doing so as if he is "God" rather he is doing so as if he is not "God"....In order to be sent there must have been a sender.....

 

[Shermana]

Yes, read the works of the early Christians.

Like Justin Martyr and Clement and Origin? How early are you talking? The concept doesn't really get introduced until Tertullian and it took the Fathers several centuries to figure the exact specifics. Even Athanasius' beliefs were not fully a perfect fit with the final Trinity version. And yeah, John 10:30 needs to be contrasted with where Jesus says "Let them be one as we are one" as DP says. What can be seen by the "Early Fathers" is a deliberate attempt to add interpolations and start shuffling the grammar around to meet this Syncretic doctrine's needs starting around the 3rd-4th century.

 

[Shermana]

Referencing?

Blessings, AJ

Ummm...referencing the part whree Paul says "Work out your Salvation with Fear and trembling". Your response to this was "sometimes people get in a bind". Okay....? Do you honestly think that is a sufficient answer to Paul claiming that everyone's salvation is NOT guaranteed apparently and has to be "worked out"? What kind of Bind? How did they get into this bind and why is their salvation in jeopardy, and where does the text indicate this through the context? (Hint: It doesn't, and your interpretation goes squarely against the rest of Phil). Paul clearly says to show your repentance with "deeds". These are not just "Spiritual labors". I have no idea what a "Spiritual Labor" is and I don't think the bible contains any kind of precedent of the concept nor did the author mean anything besides "Physical works" and "Obedience to the commandmnets"when he said "works". Just because these concepts don't fit with your doctrine of Easy-123 salvation doesn't mean you get to interpret it in your own unprecedented terms. The "Labor" here is clearly referring to actual, physical redemptive work and obedience.Even Abraham's sacrifice which Paul describes as a test of faith was a work. I'm guessing you don't read James either. Or 1 John.

 

[Falcon]

Jesus said He was God, it's in the Holy Bible and the early Christians agree, that's good enough for me , being that they never said He wasn't. Only people saying that Jesus isn't God are those that no longer walked with Him as described in the Book of John and some people today that aren't Christians anyway.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus said He was God, it's in the Holy Bible and the early Christians agree, that's good enough for me , being that they never said He wasn't. Only people saying that Jesus isn't God are those that no longer walked with Him as described in the Book of John and some people today that aren't Christians anyway.

No he' didn't. Quote where he said "I am God". Are you referring to where he said "Before Abraham was, I am?" Many translations correctly use "Before Abraham was, I was". They never said he wasn't? His own disciples called him a prophet.

Who are these "Early Christians" who agree exactly? At what date do you consider "Early Christians"? Were the Arians not Christians? How can you say the early Christians never said he wasn't when there were factions like the Nestorians and Monarchians?

So you say that unless you believe Jesus was G-d, you're not a "Christian", I say just the opposite. I say those who believe Jesus was G-d are antichrists, for they deny what Jesus actually was, the Christ. (Despite claiming to acknowledge he was Christ).

 

[Protester]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Jesus only directly admitted to being God, in a direct manner.

This is about as direct as it can get,

Matthew 16
13Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, "“Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”"

14They said, “Some say John the Baptizer, some, Elijah, and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.”

15He said to them, "“But who do you say that I am?”"

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus answered him, "“Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Christ as the man, had to not appear seditious. Pontius Pilate never accused Jesus of being seditious, not that he didn't have the opportunity. So, Jesus never broke Roman law, but was executed for blasphemy a Jewish charge,

Matthew 26
62The high priest stood up, and said to him, “Have you no answer? What is this that these testify against you?” 63But Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”

64Jesus said to him, "“You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”"

65Then the high priest tore his clothing, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. 66What do you think?”

As Matthew Henry pointed out, "...When Christ was made sin for us, he was silent, and left it to his blood to speak. Hitherto Jesus had seldom professed expressly to be the Christ, the Son of God; the tenor of his doctrine spoke it, and his miracles proved it; but now he would not omit to make an open confession of it. It would have looked like declining his sufferings. He thus confessed, as an example and encouragement to his followers, to confess him before men, whatever hazard they ran...."

Ah, none of my pastors will say I was :sleep: when the sermon on this topic was given

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus said He was God, it's in the Holy Bible and the early Christians agree, that's good enough for me , being that they never said He wasn't. Only people saying that Jesus isn't God are those that no longer walked with Him as described in the Book of John and some people today that aren't Christians anyway.

Since there is No Scripture where Jesus says he is God,
then how could one say that he is God.

Who did 'John' say Jesus was according to John at 1v34? 'Son'

What did 'Nathanael' say at John 1v49? 'Son'

What about 'Peter speaking for all twelve' at John 6v69 ? 'Son'

What about the 'Jews' accusing Jesus of blasphemy at John 10v36?
Didn't Jesus answer because he [Jesus] said : I [Jesus] am the 'Son'......

What did 'Martha' believe at John 11v27? 'Son'

Who did the resurrected Jesus ascend to at John 20v17?

What did John conclude at John 20v31 that we might believe Jesus is 'Son'.

What about the resurrected heavenly Jesus didn't Jesus say his is still 'Son' at Revelation 2v18 ?

Doesn't Jesus believe he is the beginning of the creation by God? Rev 3v14 B

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John [14v9] he that has seen me has seen the Father....

Jesus already stated at John [12vs44,45] that he that believes on Jesus, believes not on Jesus but on him that sent Jesus. So seeing Jesus sees God in speaking through Christ.

Not a literal seeing of God because as 1st John [4v12] says No man has seen God at any time. No man can see God and live according to Exodus [33v20]
People have seen Jesus and lived.

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
The "therefore" meaning, the enabling is there, go for it!
But the laboring for it is not the same as working for it because Jesus already did it for us, the enabler.

Wrong. The "therefore" meaning "for that reason". Labour and work are synonymous, therefore, we must keep God's commandments, or there is no rest.

We must? No, otherwise it becomes our works and not Christ's!

There are absolutely no human works imaginable for the salvation of our souls.

It is the works of God which is given to us as a free gift! What part of "free gift" do we have to work for?

Now, I am going to agree with you on your following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Our laboring then is in seeking Him out and when we do find Him, we have His works as our own.

Wrong. Our labour is to seek Him out, have faith, recognize our sins, repent of those sins, be baptized in His name, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then dedicate our lives to keeping His commandments.

Yes, a repentant heart, mind and bring our bodies in conformity to that of Christs.

All that can not happen until first God enables (Calls )us to come to Him, and we then therefore, there, that word again "therefore", is the enabling of and by His spirit to a renewal of our once dead spirit to that of life.

We become as babes in Christ where Jesus is born in us and grows in us to maturity as we allow Him to. What part of our heart will we give Him to posses?

That is what is called "working out" of our salvation which has already being bought and paid for by Jesus.

That is why we, regardless of what our belief's are, can not have a corner on the grace of God. For God takes no sides, for His Son died to pay the price for all souls good or bad.

Yes, if you love God you will want, I say "want" rather than "Have to" to follow His commandments.

What are His commandments, New Testament style if you will?

Love God and neighbor?

If we comply with those two, than any sins we commit are strictly accountable to us in the flesh.

You don't believe me? What happened to some the famous TV evangelists, to some pastors, priests, deacons, teachers, politicians you name them.

All have to pay a price for their sins while yet in the flesh.

So it behooves us by the strength of our love for God to refrain from sinning willfully, and strive to live just and right.

If God thought that we deserved eternal banishment for no fault of our own, then God lied to us or deceived us into thinking that He was a God of love.

But that is not the case. For you know as well as I that God so loved the world He gave His only Son for it.

So what part of the world was not included?

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
What has to be distinguished, or separated are our works from Gods works. Our works only give us our reaping of what we sow, accountable and payable in the flesh.

Wrong. Our works determine whether we love God enough to keep His commandments. Our lack of works shows that we love Satan enough to ignore God and rest on our disobedience.

Our works determine whether we love God enough to keep His commandments.

I don't disagree with you. Just remember that it is not a must, but rather a desire.
In that context, is what God looks for.

As for Satan, well, the "devil" doesn't make anybody do anything unless, we ourselves allow sin to reign at our own expense.

Why suppose there is no fear of Satan? That is because our love for God is made perfect! Now, don't misunderstand the word "perfect" here.

We could never become perfect unless we do it through the blood of Christ.

God loves all religious beliefs whose hearts are sincere towards Him, for God looks at the hearts and not the outer parts of the heart: the body.

Christianity, is my belief is the greatest belief structure in the whole entire world. The problem is it's growth towards spiritual maturity.

When we, as Christian demand that the world believe in Jesus as we do or else is still being in the inmature stage of our spiritual growth.

To be spiritually mature is to accept the world as God did through His Son Jesus.

When we can see and believe that, then we shall have reached our mature spiritual state, as Jesus did.
Why would Jesus say love your enemies? Why would Jesus not call ten thousands of His angels to deliver Him from being under subjection of mankind. Why would Jesus forgive the women who was caught in adultery? Why would Jesus heal the Centurions son? Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive His persecutors?

Seems to me that God already demonstrated His unconditional love for all of us by His Son, wouldn't you say?

Why in the world then would we want to set up standards that would require the righteousness of mankind and not Gods righteousness for the salvation of our souls?

Is not God's righteousness sufficient to save the worst sinner?

Those are the questions many of us have to settle in our views of our beliefs in God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
God's works are all together different in that He grants us His righteous works via Jesus as our works enabling us to receive life. The tree of life if we reach for it to eat of its fruit.

And it takes effort, as in faithful adherence to His commandments, to eat of that fruit.

Yes it does, for this world we were subjected into, is not a place, pie in the sky, a rose garden, but a wilderness in which we must traverse.

But as God led the Israelis through the desert, God blessed them. But one would think that they would have learned the first time how to keep cammandments. but no, they had to be delivered time and time again from their own miss-deeds.

Similarly, we all have our wilderness to cross. How we cross it, with or without God, makes a whole lot of difference as to how much we suffer.

That where we labor to remain right with God, for our own benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Jesus is the tree of life that we should labor to seek with our hearts, mind and soul.

That kind of labor is not physical but spiritual.

Blessings, AJ

It's both. That's why we're both physical and spiritual beings. One cannot be without the other.

You have all the right stuff, for lack of a better word, which is to my understanding your safety net. Until you are able to venture out your safety net envelope to see things through the eyes of God, your safety net remains.

I'm not saying that to look down on you, but to give you an idea that the love of God is greater than what we can imagine.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

Why would Jesus forgive the women who was caught in adultery?

He didn't, that part is forged. Look up "Pericope Adulterae".