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Did Jesus say he was God???

wayward_teen

Beautiful Disaster
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

The problem is that this is only good evidence if you accept the Bible. Unfortunately, there is great historical evidence that suggests none of the written accounts of miracles and sayings of Jesus were not first hand accounts--e.g., the writers of the gospels weren't actually "there".
Even if you hold that the bible is still true and accurate, you can at least see where non-Christians are coming from. Islamic apologetics websites have been publishing articles for ages that reject biblical divinity claims of Jesus, and the evidence they presents appears to me to be just as valid as the stuff you posted above. :)
 

Shermana

Heretic
The problem is that this is only good evidence if you accept the Bible. Unfortunately, there is great historical evidence that suggests none of the written accounts of miracles and sayings of Jesus were not first hand accounts--e.g., the writers of the gospels weren't actually "there".
Even if you hold that the bible is still true and accurate, you can at least see where non-Christians are coming from. Islamic apologetics websites have been publishing articles for ages that reject biblical divinity claims of Jesus, and the evidence they presents appears to me to be just as valid as the stuff you posted above. :)

The real problem is that even if you accept the Bible, all verses which are claimed to be Trinitarian proof texts, as you can see if you go back 10 or 20 (or more) pages, are either interpolations or from completely butchered grammar to shape the Bias, so even if you do accept the Bible, you have to remember that the mainstream opinion is their market with most translations, you have to look at the Koine as well as historical context or go with less-known translations.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You are saying you are as righteous as Jesus merely for believing you are? That's the most I could make of your response.

There is nothing in the scripture which says you are incapable of being righteous. That is pure Roman/Lutheran doctrine. This belief ultimately throws out 99% of what is said about good behavior and replaces it with a few cherry picked verses that ultimately negate the other 99% in such context.

I personally believe in order to truly confess that Jesus Christ has arrived in the flesh, you have to actually acknowledge the "Christ" part as in the Messianic predictions, which include leading Israel (or the chosen remnant thereof) back to righteousness.


Excellent question!
Quote: "You are saying you are as righteous as Jesus merely for believing you are"?

Except we accept the righteousness of Jesus as our own we are without the required righteousness. So, if I place my faith in the righteousness of Jesus and claim it as my own I am without sin.
Don't read anything other than that.

You see, in order for us to be reconciled back to the Father, we must be covered by the righteousness of God as our own thus being made perfect and without sin.

Now as for my own behavior, my deeds (whether good or bad ones) are accounted unto me while I exist, for after I expire, my works cease as does whatever I accumulated, yet my soul belongs to Jesus.

But you missed my whole point of my last point. The point was that regardless of who we are, the righteousness of God is required, of which no man apart from God can muster.
There is nothing in the scripture which says you are incapable of being righteous.

Righteous for the purpose of salvation no! For the bible states :Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So what hope have we in our own righteousness? None! Now, if God washes our filthy rags then we shall be made clean.

Your own righteousness is accounted solely to your own existence and what you sow, you shall reap. That is the extent of that.

I personally believe in order to truly confess that Jesus Christ has arrived in the flesh, you have to actually acknowledge the "Christ" part as in the Messianic predictions, which include leading Israel (or the chosen remnant thereof) back to righteousness.

You are correct in your assessment but you need to look at Jesus as the "remnant", for Jesus is the new generation of people.
Israel has already be reckoned as righteous for obeying the law as commanded by rejecting Jesus as the true messiah and allowing Jesus to be offered up as the once and for all sacrifice for the world.

You see, Jesus is the righteousness required, as He fulfilled the whole of mankind's first creation and has by the power of the Father, redeemed all of mankind.

So Israel was an instrument in the hand of the Father to perform the works of thew Father. If Israel would accept Jesus as the promised Messiah, then Israel would be "Led" of Jesus into the promised land.

Just as like you are now, a Messianic Jew, a believer in the Son of God, thus you have entrance now, while you exist in the flesh to enjoy the fruits of His kingdom, to enter in and go out at your pleasure.

Blessings, AJ
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
RE: Mighty God, Everlasting Father [Isaiah 9vs6,7]

God is a title. Jesus is never referred to as Almighty God, but Mighty God.

Mighty God is in connection to Jesus title of Everlasting Father.

Father means: life giver

God granted Jesus the mighty power over the resurrection [life giving]

So, Jesus will be Everlasting [life-giving] Father to the resurrected dead.

Please note at Acts [2vs34,35] that Jesus 'will be' [future Acts 24v15]
father [life giver] to David [1st Kings 2v10] at the future time coming when God makes all of Jesus enemies his footstool.
[Psalm 110vs1,2]

P.S. -

As far as John 14v9 please note what John already wrote in chapter one verse 18 A.
No man has seen God at any time. [People saw Jesus]

John also wrote at 1st John 4v12 that: No man has seen God at any time..

Can a person according to Exodus 33v20 see God and live?______
Yet people saw Jesus and lived.
 

Yanni

Active Member
I personally believe in order to truly confess that Jesus Christ has arrived in the flesh, you have to actually acknowledge the "Christ" part as in the Messianic predictions, which include leading Israel (or the chosen remnant thereof) back to righteousness.
I can't understand this. If Jesus "died for humanity's sins," then does that mean everyone now became righteous? If so, what about all the theft, lying, stealing, adultery, and all the other horrible things Christians (and people around the world) do? What happened to the perfect universe he (assuming he was the messiah) was supposed to create? So Jesus died for everyone's sins, just to allow them to sin again? Did God make a mistake in making human nature that He realized He was too harsh on mankind and forgave them for everything they already did wrong and say, "Okay, I'm sorry for being so harsh before. You no longer have to worry about repercussions for wrongdoing, because Jesus died for you sins, so you can sin all you want, and since I love you so much (for being so sinful), I will look away from your wrongdoing?" Does that make any sense at all?

P.S. There is no Scriptural basis for a "second coming" of the messiah; he is not supposed to die before he fulfills his mission. Since Jesus died, and did not even fulfill the first of the 6 authentic messianic criteria, he is automatically excluded from being the messiah.
 

Shermana

Heretic
That is the general Christian interpretation, not mine. They generally ignore the parts like 1 John 3 and Matthew 7:22-23 and 1 John 5:3 that say your behavior and works and such are part of the process. "All will be rewarded according to their works", "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness". The idea is that you will be punished according to your sins, this is rather inconvenient for most "Christians'.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I can't understand this. If Jesus "died for humanity's sins," then does that mean everyone now became righteous? If so, what about all the theft, lying, stealing, adultery, and all the other horrible things Christians (and people around the world) do? What happened to the perfect universe he (assuming he was the messiah) was supposed to create? So Jesus died for everyone's sins, just to allow them to sin again? Did God make a mistake in making human nature that He realized He was too harsh on mankind and forgave them for everything they already did wrong and say, "Okay, I'm sorry for being so harsh before. You no longer have to worry about repercussions for wrongdoing, because Jesus died for you sins, so you can sin all you want, and since I love you so much (for being so sinful), I will look away from your wrongdoing?" Does that make any sense at all?
P.S. There is no Scriptural basis for a "second coming" of the messiah; he is not supposed to die before he fulfills his mission. Since Jesus died, and did not even fulfill the first of the 6 authentic messianic criteria, he is automatically excluded from being the messiah.

Didn't both Job and Jesus die faithful?
Satan did Not succeed in breaking the integrity of either Job or Jesus.

According to Hebrews [9v24] Jesus presented the value of his faithful death and sacrifice to the person of God. God accepted Jesus ransom for us.

Jesus pronounced many 'woes' and his reasons why in Matthew chapter 23 against the false religious leaders.

The 'goat-like' ones of Matthew [25v32] are Not judged as righteous.
Only those of verse 37 are judged as righteous.

Please also notice Matthew [20v28 B] because there is states that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for: 'many'. Not 'all' but: many.

So, except for those of Matthew [12v32] and Hebrews [6vs4-6;10vs26,27],
the majority of mankind will end up being judged as righteous during Jesus millennial reign over earth. -Psalm 72v8
 

Yanni

Active Member
Didn't both Job and Jesus die faithful?
Satan did Not succeed in breaking the integrity of either Job or Jesus.

According to Hebrews [9v24] Jesus presented the value of his faithful death and sacrifice to the person of God. God accepted Jesus ransom for us.

Jesus pronounced many 'woes' and his reasons why in Matthew chapter 23 against the false religious leaders.

The 'goat-like' ones of Matthew [25v32] are Not judged as righteous.
Only those of verse 37 are judged as righteous.

Please also notice Matthew [20v28 B] because there is states that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for: 'many'. Not 'all' but: many.

So, except for those of Matthew [12v32] and Hebrews [6vs4-6;10vs26,27],
the majority of mankind will end up being judged as righteous during Jesus millennial reign over earth. -Psalm 72v8
The big problem, my friend, is that Judaism states that God NEVER allows human sacrifice to atone for others. The sins of others is NOT taken away through the death of another. That concept is completely alien to Jewish doctrine. Therefore, the concept of Jesus dying for our sins has no basis in Judaism, and that is one of the many reasons Jews don't believe in Jesus.

Also, why would I take into account writings that I hold to be utterly false. The Torah was authored by God Himself, dictated word for word to Moses throughout our forty year journey through the desert. The Christian Bible contradicts itself plenty of times, and attributes certain actions that are against the Torah to Jesus. Since God says in His Torah that a true prophet must abide by every single Torah commandment, and Jesus went against some Torah commandments, he is automatically deemed a false prophet in God's eyes.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Except we accept the righteousness of Jesus as our own we are without the required righteousness. So, if I place my faith in the righteousness of Jesus and claim it as my own I am without sin.
Don't read anything other than that.
Don't read anything other than that? What does that mean? Does that mean you don't have to have any specific Scriptural backing besides your vague post Sola-Fide Lutheran Theology?

Basically what you're saying is, in translation:

" just believe this, and snip out every other part that says that your righteousness is a major factor of how you are judged, don't read the part that says Jesus says "I will reward each according to your works", don't bother with Matthew 5:17-20 "Verily your righteousness must exceed the Pharisees", don't bother with "Striving for the Narrow gate", don't bother reading into "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Excellent example of modern "Church" Theology, thank you.

What do you think of the part of Isaiah 66, since you bring up 64 as the very vague basis of your quasi-logic, where it says that those who eat Swine's flesh will be left to rot? I love this verse.

17 Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst ofa those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the Lord.
 
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look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I can't understand this. If Jesus "died for humanity's sins," then does that mean everyone now became righteous? If so, what about all the theft, lying, stealing, adultery, and all the other horrible things Christians (and people around the world) do?>>>Yanni

Yanni, what I explain is strictly my personal view and I present it as an option.

God created and the thing created became separated, which equals to eternal death, because the thing created (Mankind became as like god, to know both good and evil) could not be created any other way.

So, because the thing created had no power of its own to overturn the sentence of death, God had to do it for us.
That's the part Jesus played in the life of humanity. He Jesus, as God, with the full authority of God, had the power to overturn our death sentence, thus completely separate from our own righteousness.

God granted us life for the taking, assuming we become knowledgeable about it, making of us sinless, acceptable into the kingdom of God by God's work and not ours.

Now, since Jesus as God, the bible states that there is no other name "under Heaven" by which mankind can be saved.

That being the case, then Jesus is the way, the truth and the life of every soul that ever lived, as our direct access to the Kingdom of the Father.

Murderers, and all who willingly sin, build to themselves recompense and payment due while in the flesh.
Jesus, as God being the one who purchased our souls from eternal destruction, is our God... the Father, for when we die and see Jesus, we will see the Father.

He has the power to forgive all our sins, to heal, to give us joy in times of trouble, to give us hope when we see no hope, to comfort us in times of trials and tribulations, to support us in our endeavors, our businesses, our work and allow us to be His representatives here on earth.if we repent, meaning have a change of mind to do the right things.

He also gives us the responsibility to self government, to set laws, execute those laws
of those who trespass them.
There is however, an ever present potential for any of those laws in the hands of mankind to go amok. Hence the constant stand against evil deeds.

What is very hard for Christians as well as many other people in the world to believe is how can a God love even the murderers and evil doers?
The answer lies in that those evil doer's deeds are punishable in the flesh.

The opposite of living is death, so if we kill, then our death is required; thus payment is met in full. (For the wages of sin is death)

Our own righteousness is our protection against the evil that we may do.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Don't read anything other than that? What does that mean? Does that mean you don't have to have any specific Scriptural backing besides your vague post Sola-Fide Lutheran Theology?

Basically what you're saying is, in translation:

" just believe this, and snip out every other part that says that your righteousness is a major factor of how you are judged, don't read the part that says Jesus says "I will reward each according to your works", don't bother with Matthew 5:17-20 "Verily your righteousness must exceed the Pharisees", don't bother with "Striving for the Narrow gate", don't bother reading into "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".>>>Shermana

Your not seeing it as I do. Righteousness for salvation no man can do but god alone.

Broad is the way of every soul, yet narrow is the way of the Son. Meaning that Jesus had no leeway in His journey, for He must fulfill all that was written of Him in order to be able to free us.
When John states : Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What condition is the word free meant there? Suppose you said, from your sins, well, guess what, though you might be set free from your sins, you would not remain that way for you would sin again.

But if you said, "free from eternal death", then you would be free forever. You see the difference?

Our works are our own and we either get blessed for them or we become cursed by them.
God has judged the world by Jesus, meaning, He paid the price for all of our sins making Him the forgiver of any sin we commit.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Can a person according to Exodus 33v20 see God and live?______
Yet people saw Jesus and lived.>>>URAVIP2ME

I agreed with your post! The answer to your question in Exodus33:20 is yes!
But remember that there are two kinds of "live".

When the people looked at the fiery serpent and lived, continued living in the flesh.
Those that had seen Jesus, not only continued living in the flesh till they died physically, but also lived in the spirit for their spirits were born again.

That same picture goes along with both types of righteousness. Our own righteousness is accountable only to us while we live physically. But God's righteousness lives on forever in our hearts when we become born again of His spirit.

That is why, for the sake of all those who want to add works to their salvation, our works are as filthy rags, requiring the righteousness that is of God for our salvation.

It is a free gift of which no work is required. But better off we are if we practice good works for then God will bless us the more.

Blessings, AJ
 

Yanni

Active Member
Yanni, what I explain is strictly my personal view and I present it as an option.

God created and the thing created became separated, which equals to eternal death, because the thing created (Mankind became as like god, to know both good and evil) could not be created any other way.

So, because the thing created had no power of its own to overturn the sentence of death, God had to do it for us.
That's the part Jesus played in the life of humanity. He Jesus, as God, with the full authority of God, had the power to overturn our death sentence, thus completely separate from our own righteousness.

God granted us life for the taking, assuming we become knowledgeable about it, making of us sinless, acceptable into the kingdom of God by God's work and not ours.

Now, since Jesus as God, the bible states that there is no other name "under Heaven" by which mankind can be saved.

That being the case, then Jesus is the way, the truth and the life of every soul that ever lived, as our direct access to the Kingdom of the Father.

Murderers, and all who willingly sin, build to themselves recompense and payment due while in the flesh.
Jesus, as God being the one who purchased our souls from eternal destruction, is our God... the Father, for when we die and see Jesus, we will see the Father.

He has the power to forgive all our sins, to heal, to give us joy in times of trouble, to give us hope when we see no hope, to comfort us in times of trials and tribulations, to support us in our endeavors, our businesses, our work and allow us to be His representatives here on earth.if we repent, meaning have a change of mind to do the right things.

He also gives us the responsibility to self government, to set laws, execute those laws
of those who trespass them.
There is however, an ever present potential for any of those laws in the hands of mankind to go amok. Hence the constant stand against evil deeds.

What is very hard for Christians as well as many other people in the world to believe is how can a God love even the murderers and evil doers?
The answer lies in that those evil doer's deeds are punishable in the flesh.

The opposite of living is death, so if we kill, then our death is required; thus payment is met in full. (For the wages of sin is death)

Our own righteousness is our protection against the evil that we may do.

Blessings, AJ
I respect your personal view; however, it is flawed for a number of reasons. First of all, Jewish doctrine states that God punished righteous people in this world so as to have them bypass the temporary pains of "hell" in the Afterlife. When evil seems to flourish in this world, they flourish and get their reward in this world so that they must go through the pains of "hell" in the Afterlife. That helps with "why do bad things happen to good people."

Second, I don't know if you ever read this, but here it is: The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims
1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”. It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head. Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).

2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible. Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.

3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.

5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.

6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.

8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.

10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:
a] Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.
b] When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

c] The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.
11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.

There are two problems with this claim:
a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;
b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).
To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.
b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;
I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)
d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
Also see Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus?
 

Shermana

Heretic
Your not seeing it as I do. Righteousness for salvation no man can do but god alone.

Broad is the way of every soul, yet narrow is the way of the Son. Meaning that Jesus had no leeway in His journey, for He must fulfill all that was written of Him in order to be able to free us.
When John states : Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What condition is the word free meant there? Suppose you said, from your sins, well, guess what, though you might be set free from your sins, you would not remain that way for you would sin again.

But if you said, "free from eternal death", then you would be free forever. You see the difference?

Our works are our own and we either get blessed for them or we become cursed by them.
God has judged the world by Jesus, meaning, He paid the price for all of our sins making Him the forgiver of any sin we commit.

Blessings, AJ

You're not seeing it as I do, you're seeing it in ways that totally ignore verses like "your righteousness must exceed the Scribes and Pharisees" (can a murderous and adulterous Christian who claims Jesus forgives them be considered more righteous than them? )and by using manmade Christology than utterly runs in the face of everything mentioned.

Matthew 7:22-23 says only those who do the will of the Father will be accepted, "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness" (Iniqiuity = lawlessness)

You have no scripture to base your theology on except misinterpretations, whereas there are clear cut verses like

"I will judge each according to their works"

And

"If your hand offends you, cast it off...."

And

"Faith without works is dead"

and

"Justified through works"

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"



I appreciate you representing the standard Antinomian method of ignoring vast swaths of scripture as if your particular interpretation of one verse negates the context of all those.

1 John 3 is pretty clear. Sin is Lawlessnss. He who continues to sin does not know Christ.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You're not seeing it as I do, you're seeing it in ways that totally ignore verses like "your righteousness must exceed the Scribes and Pharisees" (can a murderous and adulterous Christian who claims Jesus forgives them be considered more righteous than them? )and by using manmade Christology than utterly runs in the face of everything mentioned.>>>Shermana

"your righteousness must exceed the Scribes and Pharisees" you must not have read my post on that verse above.

That was Jesus giving us notice that not even the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees would do, even if we exceeded their righteousness, still would not be suficiant to meet the rewuirements for salvation.

The point that God is making in all of it is that unless we accept His righteousness as our own, we don't stand a prayer.

When one is not open minded enough to see in..... from the outside of the bottle, one is stuck to only seeing out ....from within. That limits understanding.

The nation of Israel can only see from the inside because of the laws, traditions and the limited word "The Torah".

That is why they were blinded by the word to see Jesus, which was the designed plan of the Father.

Matthew 7:22-23 says only those who do the will of the Father will be accepted, "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness" (Iniquity = lawlessness)

You have no scripture to base your theology on except misinterpretations, whereas there are clear cut verses like

"I will judge each according to their works"

And

"If your hand offends you, cast it off...."

And

"Faith without works is dead"

and

"Justified through works"

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

You and I know that evil works of whatever kind are not accepted by the Father right?

OK, evil works at the time of Jesus' presence here on earth reflected the impossibility of mankind's efforts to gain sufficient righteousness for the salvation of the soul.

So Jesus uses the contrast between the evil doers and the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees to point out that neither will make it unless the righteousness of God which is in Jesus is accepted.

God has concluded all under sin, no exceptions. So Jesus as God, Immanuel, (God with us) encompasses the whole righteousness of God in human form in order to deliver us from our own inapt ability to be perfect as God is perfect.

In order for the nation of Israel to become saved yet while still living, must, as Jesus said, come through Him in order to reach the father.

You must be willing to step out and look into the bottle from the outside in order to see a clear picture of the works of God in our behalf.

If......Jesus faith has not produced the works (Will of the Father) then His faith would be dead.

We can not produce absolute obedience to the will of the Father save only the Father.

But, we can accept Jesus' absolute obedience as our own in and through Jesus as God, as He Jesus pointed out.as our Father.

Its hard to see my explanations when one is thinking like the righteous son of the story of the prodigal son.

After all, the unrighteous son squandered all his inheritances in sin and lust, yet the Father opened up His arms to receive him at the disappointment of the righteous son.

The Father of the two sons loved them both equally, just as our father loves us all equally.
Now, some may squander all their lives to lustful living, yet God will receive them with open arms at their repentance or at their death.

But the reaping what one sowed, will be required in the flesh.

Blessings, AJ
 

Shermana

Heretic
Sure just go ahead and ignore all those verses and stick to your Theology, that's how most "Christians" do it.

Let me repeat that last one.


"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Why don't you give your opinion of that one.

PS The story doesn't say the unrighteous son re-received his inheritance, the righteous son still got the actual blessing, the unrighteous son was lucky he was accepted back.

However...I do appreciate this sentence because it shows why this illogical "Trinity" doctrine is such an important issue for these easy-does-it Salvation theologies.
So Jesus as God, Immanuel, (God with us) encompasses the whole righteousness of God in human form in order to deliver us from our own inapt ability to be perfect as God is perfect.
PS Where is Jesus ever called Immanuel? The word "El" can mean "a god" and the name means "a god with us" or it means "G-d with us" in the sense that Ezekiel means "G-d strengthens". Either way, this theology has NO scriptural backing. At best, Yashua says "Be perfect as your father is perfect". Does he say "You will become perfect"? No, he orders one to "be" perfect, as in to "Strive" for the "Narrow gate".
 
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look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

Why don't you give your opinion of that one.>>>Shermana

Guess what? I don't have to work any more! So, why should I fear and tremble?

Now, if I did have to work out my salvation, then I surely would have fear of not meeting God's requirements and that surely would make me tremble.

But you see, the bible tells me this: Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

7x7=49 and the 50th is the year of jubilee. Jesus entered into His rest on the seventh day as His works were finished. I in turn rest on His works as a gift from God, thus I am free as the 50th year.

So, If I am free, then what have I to fear?

Do you have fear and do you tremble at the thought that you might not be able to make it because of your works?

Blessings, AJ
 

Shermana

Heretic
Okay thank you for your assessment that you feel your salvation is assured.

Now then what is the meaning of that verse? So your opinion is that Paul was writing to people of a church who hadn't yet been saved? Why are you saved and they weren't at the time? Why did their salvation involve "Fear and Trembling" and yours wouldn't? What does it mean to "Work out" your salvation? Why did Paul say there was Fear and Trembling involved?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Okay thank you for your assessment that you feel your salvation is assured.

Now then what is the meaning of that verse? So your opinion is that Paul was writing to people of a church who hadn't yet been saved? Why are you saved and they weren't at the time? Why did their salvation involve "Fear and Trembling" and yours wouldn't? What does it mean to "Work out" your salvation? Why did Paul say there was Fear and Trembling involved?

As of the new Gospel or "the good news" is that God in Jesus has granted us all the enabling of assured salvation. I say enabling because when we receive knowledge of the tree of life (Jesus) and gain understanding, we are set free in the liberty which Christ has set us free.

What has to be taken into consideration is the point from when Jesus was resurrected and before, extending to the very first parents represented by the story of Adam and Eve.
All those souls during that time had some form of religious belief, be it the God of Israel or any other god imagined by mankind were lost.

I say lost because the designed work of God in the creation design had as a consequence "separation" due to making us in like His image. So there was fear and trembling as there was no assurance of any life after death. I mean there were all sorts of imagined gods, after life scenarios yet all without assurances due to the fact that tere was no real revelation of who or what this creator God was.

Until Abraham.

So after Jesus' resurrection, the new creation begun. The new creation consists of the first, meaning the creation of the flesh, but with a renewed spirit.

That new spirit is not the same as of Adam, after it's own kind, but of God spirit after Jesus' own kind. Hence the rebirth.

"The working out"m simply means, when viewed with an open mind, is having the foundation of salvation as a gift of God by Jesus, and the working out is bringing the flesh in conformity to the new life in God.

When the expression "work it out" is used, it means that perhaps one got oneself into a bind, and have to some how work out the solution.

The point of that is that the problem already exists as salvation granted already exists, so that we ought to work it out by bring our body and mind under subjection to the leading of God's Spirit. The Holy Spirit.

The trinity you seem to have a problem understanding. Very simple.

God the Father is the creator of all there is.
Under His creation, living souls were created and lost.
God the Son is the remedy for the lost condition of the Fathers creation by rebirth of a dead spirit in us.
And then after Jesus resurrection and took His place at the right hand of the Father, meaning absolute authority as the fathers powers and might, or if you can believe it, God. One and not two.

God left us His Spirit to dwell with all believers and be taught by Him.

That is the basic structure of and in which all else has been added to complicating and making of the word of God difficult to understand and the reasons for many differing views.

God is one, and shares His kingdom with no other, but allows us to dwell in His kingdom as sons.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one!

Some scripture verses: trinity : Psa 18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield (His righteousness)of thy salvation: and thy right hand (Jesus stands at His right hand)hath holden me up, and thy gentleness (God's Holy Spirit) hath made me great.

Lost condition: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The tree of life was withheld from Adam, meaning separation, otherwise Adam could have reached to eat also of the tree of life and live forever.

The purpose for the with holding of the tree of life, was to subject mankind to a world of vanity as a life's experience.
Ref: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Life given as free gift: Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Liberty: Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

I was called and I answered, thank you Lord for your salvation, for now I am set free from my works and rest. I rest in the works your Son Jesus as my own. My salvation is sealed in His Holy Spirit via my rebirth.

Blessings, AJ
 

Shermana

Heretic
Dodging the question seems to be a specialty among "Christians" these days. The best you came up with is "Maybe he gets in a bind". What kind of bind would someone have to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling?
 
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