I agree. Since Christianity technically serves One God, then according to the Noahide Laws, those who practice Christianity would not be considered transgressing the law of idolatry. However, for a Jew to practice Christianity would be considered idolatry for the Jew (this may be hard to understand, but at face value, as long as nobody is persecuting anybody, to co-exist would be wonderful).
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Well, the majority of Orthodox Jews, especially the ultra-Orthodox Jews, follow all the relevant commandments to the present day, and therefore, "if," which I do not believe, Jesus was who he really said he was, then the Orthodox Jews of today, who follow the Torah to the last letter (to the best of their ability) should technically be most favorable in "his" eyes, and would be the farthest thing from the "lowliest" or the "least honorable" in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Right, this is what a lot of the debates are basically about on RF,
which you may have noticed.There seems to be an agenda to
bring traditional Judaism into Christianity, which is not
supported by the NT.
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Shermana
Heretic
I actually agree, that modern Jews MOSTLY follow the Torah, though many don't wear snail-dyed Tekhlet and cite things like "We don't know what it really meant" when its obvious that Cuttle-fish and sea snails produce this blue-dye. There's also issues of "adding" to the Law like saying you can't eat a chicken cheesesteak, I'd say the odds of a chicken being the son of a cow is nil. Even the odds of a burger being cooked in its mother's milk is pretty much nil.
But anyways, almost all the ones who will be called the "Least" in Heaven will actually be self-professed believers in Jesus who have taken on Antinomian theologies believing that by "fulfilling" the Law Jesus "abolished them". In essence, the worst enemies to the message of Christ are not the Jews but those who claim to be "Christians" while following a radically different form that is scarcely much different than Marcionism.
Shermana
Heretic
Oh it's fully supported by the NT, it's just that those who are among the "Least" (Matthew 5:19) refuse to acknowledge it. At best you can say that Paul's writings PERHAPS preach lawlessness, but most of these people pushing this doctrine casually skip over certain verses like Romans 2:13 and 3:31 and assume that Paul's words can trump Jesus. There's also the issue that Paul was not found guilty of lawlessness at his trial. Going by Paul's writings as sacred writ over Jesus' words is another issue......and even then, half of those Pauline epistles are 100% forged (and according to the Dutch Radical corrects, so are the other half.). I like Edgar Goodspeed's theory that even Romans and Corinthaisn may be "Patchworks".
You may notice that most Christians have never heard of the part where Jesus commands his followers to pray that they don't have to flee on the Sabbath day. The Pastors generally don't know how to handle that one.
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InChrist
Free4ever
I don't know too much about Edgar Goodspeed except that he is a liberal theologian. So it is no surprise that he would discount Paul's writings (along with other parts of the scriptures) as do so many others with a liberal slant.
I think the prophetic words of Jesus are two-fold in that they have double fulfillment. The first being in 70 A.D. when the temple was destroyed, the second will be during the great tribulation especially concerning that which will take place in Israel. He was warning His followers to pray that they would not have to flee in winter or on the Sabbath, because these could hinder their escape. Traveling would be difficult in winter, the distance one was allowed to travel was limited on the Sabbath, and the city gates of Jerusalem would have been closed in 70 A.D. Many early Christians probably did keep the Sabbath since they were Jewish, but the scriptures also indicate they met on the first day of the week in honor of Jesus resurrection. I think Jesus words also indicate the focus again will be on Jerusalem and the nation of Israel (where the Sabbath is kept) during the tribulation period. While I dont believe the Sabbath requirement has been abolished for Israel, I do not think these verses prove that keeping the Sabbath is required for the church or those in Christ.
Do you believe that Jews and Christians, or others are required to keep the law? If so, is this for salvation, sanctification, or both?
Shermana
Heretic
If the word "Liberal" theologian means anyone who isn't orthodox, are you implying that "Conservatives" don't have a slant? Are you saying that unless someone is teaching the "Orthodox" party line that nothing they say or point out should be noted?
Yes I believe that any Christian who says they don't have to keep the Law better get used to be known as the "Least".
Regardless of what "Many Christians did", Jesus said "Don't flee on the Sabbath day". Simple as that, and he was implying such a situation of after he was crucified.
Traveling in Winter is not the same as traveling on the Sabbath. You have plenty of gentile towns on the Sabbath. Finding shelter in Winter could be difficult, but finding shelter on Sabbath in a place where non-keeping people aren't celebrating wouldn't be difficult. He is obviously not equating them but giving two different situations for when not to flee, shelter is not quite difficult to find as it is in the winter.
The issue of whether there are "2 gospels", one for gentiles and one for those who are ethnically Jewish, is quite the contentious issue, and brings up the issue of whether Paul was truly an apostle, or whether his words got distorted. Going by Jesus' words alone, implies a hard core Reactionary Jewish cult.
Yes I believe that any Christian who says they don't have to keep the Law better get used to be known as the "Least".
Regardless of what "Many Christians did", Jesus said "Don't flee on the Sabbath day". Simple as that, and he was implying such a situation of after he was crucified.
Traveling in Winter is not the same as traveling on the Sabbath. You have plenty of gentile towns on the Sabbath. Finding shelter in Winter could be difficult, but finding shelter on Sabbath in a place where non-keeping people aren't celebrating wouldn't be difficult. He is obviously not equating them but giving two different situations for when not to flee, shelter is not quite difficult to find as it is in the winter.
The issue of whether there are "2 gospels", one for gentiles and one for those who are ethnically Jewish, is quite the contentious issue, and brings up the issue of whether Paul was truly an apostle, or whether his words got distorted. Going by Jesus' words alone, implies a hard core Reactionary Jewish cult.
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The temporary Constitution of the Mosaic law covenant or contract [Sabbath] ended with Pentecost. -Acts chapter 2; Romans 7v6; 10v4; Gal. 3 vs11-13
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have both a 'minor' and a 'major' fulfillment.
Early Christians then did Not keep the Sabbath although the other people living in Jerusalem did. The Christians left Jerusalem in the year 66 so they were four years gone by the year 70.
What Scripture says Christians met on the first day of the week in worship?
Constantine started Sunday worship for all except for the farmers.
Shermana
Heretic
What in Acts Chapter 2 says that the law was terminated? How does Romans 7:6 reconcile with 2:13 and 3:31? Galatians 3:11-13's context is widely misunderstood. Consider verse 12
The man who does these things will live by them. Simple. (He is reciting Leviticus 18:5 where the word "live" should mean "survive" as in "He will survive by following them".) The "Curse of the Law" is referring to the punishment of breaking it, he is not calling the Law itself a curse. Interesting that Paul was not held guilty for anything at his trial at Jerusalem except treason against the state, they couldn't actually pin lawlessness on him.
The very reason Paul returned to Jerusalem to respond to accusations of Lawlessness was precisely because of people who thought he preached lawlessness.
Ancient manuscripts support Acts as being canonical.
Chester Beatty No. 1 papyrus manuscript P45
The Muratorian Fragment attributes writership to Luke.
Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian quote Luke as writer.
Polycarp quoted Acts as canonical.
Didn't Luke write in Acts that the heavenly resurrected Jesus chose Paul to be apostle to the nations ?
First-century Christians did Not keep the temporary constitution of the Mosaic law. That ended with Pentecost for those Jews that became Christians.
Galatians 3v13 says Christ redeemed us [past tense] from the law....
Romans 10v4 says Christ is the end of the law.
Hebrews 10v1 says the law was just a shadow of good things to come.....
Colossians 2v14 says Jesus blotted out the handwritten ordinances [law].....
Please notice what verse 16 says about the Sabbath.
Both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 have a minor and major fulfillment.
Luke [19 vs11,43,44] was part of the minor fulfillment of 70 also.
The first-century Christians still living among the Jews in Jerusalem fled the city in the year 66 before the destruction of the year 70.
Jesus gave Christians a 'new' commandment to go by at John 13vs34,35.
Shermana
Heretic
Back up this statement please. It seems you're cutting the entire Jerusalem Church whom Paul did the Nazirite vow for as if they don't count in the 1st century?
There is evidence by Socrates Scholasticus that even 5th century Christians worshiped with Jews on Sabbath. The "Lord's day" is not the same thing. But where is the evidence that all 1st century "Christians" stopped after the destruction of Jerusalem? Are you forgetting mention of groups like the Ebionites or do you think they started in the 2nd century?
The Romans had to use force and threats of death to get Sabbath observance to end. That's how it ended as a practice in Rome at least, threats of violence.
There were also numerous groups who called themselves "Christians" that are written off as heretics.
Who is the "Man of Lawlessness" ?
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What was judged necessary by the apostles and elders [not Paul] at Jerusalem [Acts 15vs20,28,29] were necessary things. Sabbath was not included.
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus knew the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Matt 12vs8,12 shows Jesus knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath.[ Luke 13vs1-13; John 5vs5-9; 9vs1-14]
Rom 7v6 with 2v13; 3v31
2v13 with Deut 30v14; Ezekiel 20v11; James 1v22; Acts 13v39; Gal. 3v11
3v31 with Matt 5v17; Romans 8v4; 13v10.
Gal 3v12 with Lev 18v5; Deut 30v16; Nehemiah 9v29; Romans 10v5; 3v20
Gal 3v11 with Acts 13v39; Gal 2v16; Hebrews 2v4; 10v38
Gal 3v13 with 1 Cor 7v23; Isaiah 35v10; Matt 26v28; Titus 2v14; Heb 9v15;
Numbers 21v9; John 3v14; 19v31; Acts 5v30; Deut 21v23.
According to 2nd Thess 2vs2-8 [see also Acts 20vs29,30] that composite 'man' is the 'man of sin', the 'son of perdition [destruction]' who sits himself in the temple [house of worship] as if he is God when he is really anti-God.
So, as the false religious leaders of Jesus day was the 'man of the cloth' so too in our day the man of lawlessness are the clergy class that have proven themselves false to Christ by following not Jesus agenda but their own, often political.
Would it matter if it were true love? Where does it fall regarding love thy neighbor which should be a valid test?
InChrist
Free4ever
[FONT="]In this instance I am implying by the word liberal those who attempt by their method of higher criticism to discredit large portions of the Bible.[/FONT]
You are adding words to the scriptures, changing the words of Christ, and changing the meaning to suit your particular view. The scripture does not say, Dont flee on the Sabbath day. It says, Pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. There is a difference in the words and the reason Jesus said these words.
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
[FONT="]I doubt there were many, if any, gentile towns around Jerusalem in 70A.D. I am not sure what the situation will be like in the future during the tribulation, but I doubt there will be many gentile towns even then. As I said before travel on the Sabbath was prohibited and the gates of the city would be closed making escape difficult or impossible when the coming destruction, of which Jesus was speaking took place, if it occurred on the Sabbath.[/FONT]
[/quote]
In no way do I believe there are two gospels. All, Jew or Gentile, are saved only through faith. It is only Christs finished work of on the cross and His resurrection and victory over death which brings salvation and eternal life. I am afraid you do not understand the meaning of the Sabbath or the gospel message. Are you not are taking the Sabbath which is meant to be a rest or a ceasing from work and turning it into a required work one must do? And are you are not elevating yourself as more righteous than others and calling them least who believe in Christ alone for salvation. You are not reading and considering the whole context of Jesus words in Matthew chapter 5. I can agree with you that the law still is and always will be in effect and that it is wrong to teach otherwise. But this passage shows that even the law-keeping of the scribes and Pharisees was not enough to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven (verse 20). Even hatred in ones thoughts is breaking the commandment against murder. Do you really think you or anyone is capable of enough righteousness to meet all the requirements of the law, every letter, jot, and tittle? Christ alone fulfilled the law to the letter and those who trust His finished work have entered His rest (everyday), ceasing from their own works and effort having become a new creation and His workmanship walking in the work and spirit of Christ not the law of Moses.
InChrist
Free4ever
Those who are living in Christ and following the Spirit would not strike their parent or do anything else that is not loving to another, not because they are keeping a commandment, but because they are in submission to Christ and living out the fruits of the Spirit...love, patience, kindness, etc.
Shermana
Heretic
So does this mean that all the Christians in jail weren't "living in Christ"?
How does one "Follow the Spirit"? Can you give some examples?
Why wouldn't they strike their parents? Are they being supernaturally led to not commit any act which violates the Torah? Does this mean they won't fornicate outside of marriage either?
Shermana
Heretic
[/quote]
You accuse me of "adding to the scripture" because I think Christ literally meant "Don't flee on the Sabbath day"? Interesting tactic. Winter lasts months. Sabbath day lasts a day. Have you ever hiked a whole day on low rations? What if it was summer? You are thinking Jesus was comparing a 3 month harsh weather scenario to a single day of fleeing. Nice try. He was referring to two different situations to pray you don't have to flee to, not necessarily each for the same reason. If you want to compare a single Sabbath day to a harsh 3 month winter, you're welcome to your beliefs, but like I said, I hope you don't mind being known as "The least".
And again, Jesus never said you can break the Sabbath altogether, he said you can heal dying people and get your animal out of a ditch. Applying this to mean "You can mine coal and run and sweat for the heck of it" is an example of such Antimonian logic. I really like how you try to turn "obeying a day of rest" into a "work" as if that is self defeating.
Yes, being Law obedient is not enough, you also have to have faith. Jesus constantly admonished the Pharisees for NOT ACTUALLY OBEYING THE LAW but their OWN VERSION OF IT. That's the gist. That's why he said your righteousness must exceed them. They THINK they follow the Law, but they followed Babylonian Talmud and Pharaicism.
So does the word "Fulfilled" mean "Abolished"? When Jesus' joy was fulfilled, does that mean his joy was abolished? If Christians don't have to worry about their works, why does Jesus say "I will reward each according to their owrks"? If effort is not an issue, why do they have to strive for the sheepsgate? Why does Paul even place such an emphasis on good behavior?
It seems you have the standard "License to sin" model? You have a strange Theology, you think ther'es no effort involved, yet you say one who lives in Christ wouldn't sin. How does this work exactly?
It seems YOU are the one adding to the scripture, or rather subtracting. You must have casually skipped over all the parts where Jesus puts a great deal of emphasis on personal behavior. Why exactly does he say its better to cut off your hand than use it go to hell? No need to include those verses in your theology of course.
It doesn't matter whether I think anyone is righteous enough to meet the standards of the Law. People like you think no one has to even try at all, and all you gotta do is say "I believe", not even realizing that "believe" in the Greek means "be persuaded to follow"
"If you don't really love me, then you won't obey my commandments".
Try reading Matthew 7:22-23. "Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord...." "Away from me ye doers of Lawlessness"
Doers of Lawlessness = breakers of the Law.
So if Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, why does he say that people like you who preach you can break it will be called the "Least?" I hope you enjoy the idea of being considered among the lowliest in the kingdom. Those are Jesus' words which you seem to be denying.
It is clearly the Antinomians who try to misinterpret and add and subtract form the scriptures.
Christ was 100% Jewish, the religion is meant for Jews, and gentiles are meant to graft to the branch of Israel. If you don't like it, oh well. Get used to being known as "The least", unless you want to cross that part out with a sharpie.
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