Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Skwim]

Actually, The Bible is a form of evidence, just not the kind that supports what believers believe.

Okay, but lacking good reason to believe the Bible is factual, the evidence is unacceptable. Unless, that is, one can show the Bible is presenting a fact.


AND

To whirlingmerc's topic question: "Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?"
You answered: "The answer depends entirely on ones indoctrination, or lack thereof."

FYI, the reality of an incident exists independently of anyone's perception of it.



.

 

[lukethethird]

To me the answer lies on one's knowledge or education about what the Bible really teaches.
From the Bible we learn that Jesus did die, and his God resurrected the dead Jesus from the grave.

So what is your point, that you believe what The Bible teaches?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........... Jesus would never have been central to Judaism because sun worship was idolatry, but nevertheless he may have been an important component to the wider cultural beliefs of the Jews at that time.

Right, and as Ezekiel 8:16-18 informs us that ' sun ' worship was a God-dishonoring practice.
Jesus was an important component to those Jews who became one of his first-century followers.
Jesus taught them to worship his God with ' spirit ' and ' truth ' at John 4:23-24, (religious truth as found in Scripture - John 17:17)
To worship with ' spirit ' then would be a worship 'void of images', but having a lively spirited active form of worship.
Active worship as per obeying Jesus' instructions as found at Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8.
Walking by faith (unsighted things just Not yet here) and Not walking by idol 'sighted' things - 2 Corinthians 5:7

 

[Thief]

I'm sorry you feel like that at the moment, but God is not dead and we have not killed him, so that is something to be hopeful about, surely?

there was appearance of this thread some doubt that Someone failed to rise from the dead

I won't say ….nay
if Someone of his ability failed to continue
then what hope have we?

 

[Kilk1]

The evidence is clear that Jesus died and was seen alive after death. As even resurrection skeptic John Dominic Crossan said, "Jesus' death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixition, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus."

As for Jesus being alive afterward, even most skeptics of Christianity grant that 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 is a nutshell of the gospel that the original Christians believed. They also grant that the passage isn't guilty of embellishment and that the statement is sincere. Therefore, in the words of Germany’s leading resurrection skeptic, Gerd Lüdemann, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ” (What Really Happened to Jesus, pg. 80, emphasis mine).

The question then becomes, "How could the witnesses see Jesus alive after He was crucified?" Most skeptics today, including Lüdemann, believe they merely hallucinated, but that contradicts the fact that people saw Jesus even in groups. Because hallucinations come from a person's mind, a group hallucination would itself be supernatural. If you hallucinate an apple in front of you, no one else will be able to see it. If anyone else does, the apple's really there!

Furthermore, even skeptics like the apostle Paul converted upon seeing Jesus risen. (Again, it's unchallenged even by secular scholarship that Paul was a persecutor-turned Christian who said his radical transformation was because he saw Jesus risen.) How could he hallucinate something happening that he "knew" (at least in his mind) to be false? A modern-day equivalent would be for the likes of Richard Dawkins to suddenly claim he saw Jesus, and then become a Christian.

The best explanation, though controversial for being religious, is that Jesus was really there to be seen. In other words, yes, Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So what is your point, that you believe what The Bible teaches?

As Jesus said his ' sheep ' would listen to his voice.
We need to believe what the Bible really teaches otherwise one's worship could be in vain - Matthew 15:9.
Without the resurrection hope there is No hope for mankind to ever live again, ever see life again.
Because we sin we die. We can Not stop sinning so we die. We lean / toward wrongdoing.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us - Revelation 1:18.
In Scripture, Jesus can and will resurrect the dead.
Without the resurrection hope then there is No point to worship as per 1 Corinthians 15:12-17.
If the dead are Not to be raised up then eat and drink for tomorrow you will die - 1 Corinthians 15:32 B.
So, the point is that God did Not create us to be here a temporary time.
If we want everlasting life then only Jesus has the resurrection power to give us our life back again.

 

[EtuMalku]

I can tell you one things . . . Christians can't count

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40)

Some believe that Christ’s “three days and three nights” statement does notrequire a literal span of 72 hours, reasoning that a part of a day can be reckoned as a whole day. Thus, since Jesus died in the afternoon, they think the remainder of Friday constituted the first day, Saturday the second and part of Sunday the third. However, only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night—are accounted for in this explanation. Something is obviously wrong with the traditional view regarding when Christ was in the tomb.

If Jesus were in the tomb only from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning, then the sign He gave that He was the prophesied Messiah was not fulfilled.

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

A yearly death would be taking back Jesus' ransom sacrifice for us.
This is why Hebrews 9:27-28 informs us 'appointed to die once'.....
In other words, Jesus sacrifice for us was better than any animal sacrifice could be - Hebrew 9:23-25.

In the Greek I do Not find the word 'daylight' at John 11:9-10, but just 12 hours of the day. Day as in 1/2 of 24 hours.

It would be contrary to the teachings of the current Christian churches... but may I suggest, perhaps not to the teachings of the Gnostic Christians of the time?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The evidence is clear that Jesus died and was seen alive after death.
The question then becomes, "How could the witnesses see Jesus alive after He was crucified?" Most skeptics today, including Lüdemann, believe they merely hallucinated, but that contradicts the fact that people saw Jesus even in groups......................

In Scripture, the answer is found in that resurrected Jesus used different 'materialized bodies' to appear to his followers.
This is why they did Not at first recognize the resurrected Jesus - Luke 24:13-43.
God resurrected Jesus back to his per-human spirit body - Hebrews 9:24.
This is why resurrected Jesus in a 'materialized body' was Not at first recognized - Luke 24:18

 

[Bethsheba Ashe]

there was appearance of this thread some doubt that Someone failed to rise from the dead

I won't say ….nay
if Someone of his ability failed to continue
then what hope have we?

We have the hope and strength of our God given consciousness at all times.

 

[Left Coast]

It appears all the apostle were willing to hold that belief till death

Watergate had only a matter of 5 weeks or so before the whole lot of em were singing like canaries or incriminated various ways

Is the implication here that people are only willing to die for things that are true/good? That seems obviously incorrect.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I can tell you one things . . . Christians can't count

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40)

Some believe that Christ’s “three days and three nights” statement does notrequire a literal span of 72 hours, reasoning that a part of a day can be reckoned as a whole day. Thus, since Jesus died in the afternoon, they think the remainder of Friday constituted the first day, Saturday the second and part of Sunday the third. However, only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night—are accounted for in this explanation. Something is obviously wrong with the traditional view regarding when Christ was in the tomb.

If Jesus were in the tomb only from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning, then the sign He gave that He was the prophesied Messiah was not fulfilled.

It's not math problem, it's a language issue

Even is the book of Esther it says both 'on the 3rd day' and 'after 3 days' Esther went into the King with her request. In the normal use of language at the time part of a day and night can be referred to as a whole

We sometimes allow a person with a child born on Dec 31 to get a tax deduction for the whole year as a cultural example of another sort

 

[Riders]

How do you know it isn´t ? We have significant evidence that it is true. Do you have evidence it isn¨t true ?

Yes watch my video the last one I put up in my Pagan Christ thread.

 

[Riders]

Yes, we have evidence that it is not true, The New Testament, it is a book of theology/mythology and the source of your beliefs.

Philo of Alexandria was a Greek who wrote Jewish story combined with Egyptian mythology its been proven to be wear Christianity starts at,

 

[Riders]

The evidence is clear that Jesus died and was seen alive after death. As even resurrection skeptic John Dominic Crossan said, "Jesus' death by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixition, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus."

As for Jesus being alive afterward, even most skeptics of Christianity grant that 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 is a nutshell of the gospel that the original Christians believed. They also grant that the passage isn't guilty of embellishment and that the statement is sincere. Therefore, in the words of Germany’s leading resurrection skeptic, Gerd Lüdemann, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ” (What Really Happened to Jesus, pg. 80, emphasis mine).

The question then becomes, "How could the witnesses see Jesus alive after He was crucified?" Most skeptics today, including Lüdemann, believe they merely hallucinated, but that contradicts the fact that people saw Jesus even in groups. Because hallucinations come from a person's mind, a group hallucination would itself be supernatural. If you hallucinate an apple in front of you, no one else will be able to see it. If anyone else does, the apple's really there!

Furthermore, even skeptics like the apostle Paul converted upon seeing Jesus risen. (Again, it's unchallenged even by secular scholarship that Paul was a persecutor-turned Christian who said his radical transformation was because he saw Jesus risen.) How could he hallucinate something happening that he "knew" (at least in his mind) to be false? A modern-day equivalent would be for the likes of Richard Dawkins to suddenly claim he saw Jesus, and then become a Christian.

The best explanation, though controversial for being religious, is that Jesus was really there to be seen. In other words, yes, Jesus rose from the dead.

Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus."For the most which this writings have been proved to be fake by historians not proven true.

 

[EtuMalku]

It's not math problem, it's a language issue

Even is the book of Esther it says both 'on the 3rd day' and 'after 3 days' Esther went into the King with her request. In the normal use of language at the time part of a day and night can be referred to as a whole

We sometimes allow a person with a child born on Dec 31 to get a tax deduction for the whole year as a cultural example of another sort

What I think it was, is that he wasn't crucified on Friday, but earlier in the week as Passover commences on the 15th of the Hebrew month of Nisan and lasts for several days. This Good Friday thing is just another made up Christian holyday juxtaposed over a previous holyday.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

Jesus gave His life, Christ was raised to return again as promised.

The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

 

[lukethethird]

.

As Jesus said his ' sheep ' would listen to his voice.
We need to believe what the Bible really teaches otherwise one's worship could be in vain - Matthew 15:9.
Without the resurrection hope there is No hope for mankind to ever live again, ever see life again.
Because we sin we die. We can Not stop sinning so we die. We lean / toward wrongdoing.
Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can resurrect us - Revelation 1:18.
In Scripture, Jesus can and will resurrect the dead.
Without the resurrection hope then there is No point to worship as per 1 Corinthians 15:12-17.
If the dead are Not to be raised up then eat and drink for tomorrow you will die - 1 Corinthians 15:32 B.
So, the point is that God did Not create us to be here a temporary time.
If we want everlasting life then only Jesus has the resurrection power to give us our life back again.

So you believe.

 

[EtuMalku]

Jesus gave His life, Christ was raised to return again as promised.

The Spirit gives life, the flesh amounts to nothing.

Regards Tony

It's all well & good that you 'believe' this . . . however, since there is not one iota of proof, I guess we'll just have to call it 'faith'?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's all well & good that you 'believe' this . . . however, since there is not one iota of proof, I guess we'll just have to call it 'faith'?

There is ample proof. There is much more to life than material senses, so no guess is needed, as it takes good logic and good reasoning.

The bible gives this option as being 'Born Again'. That is someting that can be done in this life, if one so chooses.

Regards Tony