SaintMalachi
DEATH
Think about it if he created everything and he knows everything doesn't that mean he wanted Lucifer to fall?
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Did God want the Devil?
- Thread starter SaintMalachi
- Start date
outhouse
Atheistically
I would think if he was all powerfull there would be no evil unless "it" enjoyed watching his creations suffer more then what he has already done to us. in my opinion.
If he created th devil he could uncreate him as fast.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Not only that, but where did this imperfection first occur in a heaven of which in essence, was absolutely sinless and perfect to begin with prior to Lucifer's rebellion and fall. I took that imperfection was not even possible with perfection. A big question that irked me as a Christian to no bounds. Very little written on Lucifer to my knowledge. As it turns out Lucifer is one of the most interesting characters I came across.
SaintMalachi
DEATH
Your so right another interesting point is that Lucifer is considered the ultimate evil but where did he learn his cruelty and evil ways from?
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It's all a game.
If there's a god, this is all a game, unless the god is flawed or weak. Satan doesn't exist, but if he did, he would be part of the game too. Those that imagine otherwise have a god that is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence has no enemies, no threats, no difficulties, no progress, and no mistakes. If omnipotence bothers to do anything at all, it just plays games.
If there's a god, this is all a game, unless the god is flawed or weak. Satan doesn't exist, but if he did, he would be part of the game too. Those that imagine otherwise have a god that is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence has no enemies, no threats, no difficulties, no progress, and no mistakes. If omnipotence bothers to do anything at all, it just plays games.
Skwim
Veteran Member
And it's logic like this that points up the fact that Christianity is a religion so badly cobbled together from disparate sources that its inherent lack of sense demands unquestioning faith in order to survive. A sad commentary on the human need for comfort and reassurance in a life found too difficult to face on its own terms.
crimsonlung
Active Member
Agreed, see my post about blind faith:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/107539-religion-blind-faith.html
we went further on this.
The best response I have ever seen is "Yes God wanted Lucifer to fall. God wanted to create free will with that choices both good and bad had to be created. God set out the good choices while Lucifer sets out the bad. However Lucifer still answers to God. This can be seen in the bible when Lucifer tested Job. Lucifer had to ask God's permission to test him."
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
Ain't no devil. Just a device to make god easier to understand. So god could be good. But god is god. That's already too much god. 
Or, maybe no one called Lucifer fell. Maybe angels have no free will, and can't revolt against G-d. Maybe there's only an angel who has the task to make sure we humans have free will, and this angel's title is HaSatan. (The Adversary)
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Lucifer was a cherub of the rank of archangel.
God gave him the gift of creativity.
At the heart of creativity is the ability to choose.
God instructed Lucifer, but Lucifer -being new -doubted.
Lucifer deceived himself.
God wants Lucifer to do rightly.
God will accept Lucifer again if he chooses to do rightly.
God understood -before creating angels or man -that we could choose to do wrong.. to go against God's law -which is based on his knowledge as creator of what is best for us.
God could not create new beings possessing creativity without also creating the potential for that creativity to be turned against obedience to him -due to ignorance on the part of the new, inexperienced, creatures.
God also understood that we would need to experience the fruits of that disobedience in order to eventually completely eradicate the potential for evil. We needed to see the results in order to choose otherwise and know that God was telling the truth!
God does not hate Satan, he only hates what he does. Lucifer was God's beloved son -and God would accept him if he returned to him as the "prodigal son" returned to his father -
-but Satan ("adversary "-once called Lucifer -"bright star/brings light") must choose to cease to err -or be destroyed -which is a decision all face.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul [spirit]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [spirit] and body in hell [gehenna].
God gave him the gift of creativity.
At the heart of creativity is the ability to choose.
God instructed Lucifer, but Lucifer -being new -doubted.
Lucifer deceived himself.
God wants Lucifer to do rightly.
God will accept Lucifer again if he chooses to do rightly.
God understood -before creating angels or man -that we could choose to do wrong.. to go against God's law -which is based on his knowledge as creator of what is best for us.
God could not create new beings possessing creativity without also creating the potential for that creativity to be turned against obedience to him -due to ignorance on the part of the new, inexperienced, creatures.
God also understood that we would need to experience the fruits of that disobedience in order to eventually completely eradicate the potential for evil. We needed to see the results in order to choose otherwise and know that God was telling the truth!
God does not hate Satan, he only hates what he does. Lucifer was God's beloved son -and God would accept him if he returned to him as the "prodigal son" returned to his father -
-but Satan ("adversary "-once called Lucifer -"bright star/brings light") must choose to cease to err -or be destroyed -which is a decision all face.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul [spirit]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [spirit] and body in hell [gehenna].
I am sure God could eliminate Lucifer/Satan if he wanted. But he serves as an example to man that no one who works against God's interests/decrees has any hope of survival beyond their present existence.
Since it is God's Will to create man in the image of Himself we have a hope of an eternal future - if we learn the lesson not to go against Him.
Since it is God's Will to create man in the image of Himself we have a hope of an eternal future - if we learn the lesson not to go against Him.
averageJOE
zombie
If your god is truely omniscient there would be no "IF" about it.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Obviously not, which is why Lucifer was kicked out of heaven along with all his rebel anegls. They had caused too much trouble.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Very simply, in the Baha'i view God is One and has no rival or equal!
There is thus no "devil" out there trying to "get us."
And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) self when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.
Simple as that!
Peace,
Bruce
There is thus no "devil" out there trying to "get us."
And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) self when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.
Simple as that!
Peace,
Bruce
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
That is an excellent point.
He did know it could happen -and that it eventually would. He also planned for the eventuality.
In order to create creators, God allowed the possibility for some "unknowns" -but also limited the power of the creatures which are the source of the unkowns until they learned not to destroy.
God actually loves surprises and new things!
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Are you referring to the old testament?
You can not find it just as I wrote it, but it is there.
Before I get to that -these verses in the NT
is about the being who became Christ having once preached to the sinning angels back in the days of Noah -and there is only one reason he would have done so. It is not about the spirits of dead men.
...that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah
These are...
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
They are restrained -doing only as God allows, and will be judged -but this does not mean God does not want them to repent.
Consider why God initiated a conversation with Satan -asking him if he had considered his servant Job.....
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Why would he try to reason with him for no good reason?
more later -busy.....