Did God want the Devil?

[Kriya Yogi]

For what purpose and to what end...because the actions of this "God" does sound as though it is omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent....

To realize our own Godly nature within. He wants us to turn to him because in him eternal freedom, love, bliss, and evernew-joy reigns forever. It is the very destiny of every soul.

 

[Midnight Pete]

It's similar. I would compare it to a movie on a movie screen where God is a projecting the light that we think is real, only to walk out of the movies realizing it was just a movie and not real at all.

There's a Sanskrit sloka used in the soundtrack from The Matrix Revolutions OST and it goes like this

Asatoma Sat Gamaya, Tamasoma Jyotir Gamaya, Mrityorma Anritam Gamaya

which means "Lead me from the unreal to the Real, Lead me from the darkness to the Light, Lead me from the temporary to the Eternal".

Oh how I love that one.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To realize our own Godly nature within. He wants us to turn to him

Since I'm not going to do any of this...what is his purpose for me now?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

There's a Sanskrit sloka used in the soundtrack from The Matrix Revolutions OST and it goes like this



which means "Lead me from the unreal to the Real, Lead me from the darkness to the Light, Lead me from the temporary to the Eternal".

Oh how I love that one.

The matrix is a pretty good comparison. Instead of computer codes we are composed of God's consciousness instead.

I really like that quote as well. The matrix was all about Eastern philospohy but twisted in a weird way.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Since I'm not going to do any of this...what is his purpose for me now?

To create good in the world as much as you can either in your immediate family or with your fellow man. Being Dharmic and responsible is a very high thing anyone can do whether they believe in God or not. The highest thing you can do is search for God. If you can't do that or rather choose not to then serving God through being a good husband, brother, wife, sister, neighbor, employee, or whatever it is you do and do it with a sense of good nature and try to make the world a better place in that way. My Guru says meditate on God. When you can't meditate on him, then pray to him. If you can't pray then serve your fellow man for God. When you can't serve then talk about God. If you can't talk about God then read truths about God. If you cant read then think about God. If you can't think about God then do what you think is best for your growth as a being and for the people around you. It's all a step by step process and we all must start somewhere.

 

[Etritonakin]

How do you know you ever met the man?

No -never face to face, but we have a relationship none the less!

You and I have never met, but still we converse.

Even people who believe in the God of the bible don't understand the depth of the fact that we are made in God's image and likeness. We are like him -though he is greater in all things.

Even procreation and the human family is an example of his purpose.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made...

...as we are literally the children of God -and may become like him.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God has emotions like those we have -joy, anger, etc... as evidenced in many scriptures -and loves it when his children create wonderful new things.

 

[EtuMalku]

Think about it if he created everything and he knows everything doesn't that mean he wanted Lucifer to fall?

Did WHAT GOD want WHAT DEVIL?
If you are insinuating towards an Abrahamic Faith, then post this there, otherwise specify what god your are referring to.

 

[Etritonakin]

...........My signature answers the question.....

God gave many proofs -and they are recorded. What is also recorded is that many rejected him and his wisdom. However, he is about to show proof of himself again in a major way.

Many believe the bible to be false because they did not see and experience the things written therein -but if they did, the result would essentially be the same.
Generations later, their children would think it ridiculous. God knew generally what the result would be, but what was done before was necessary to prepare for what is now -and is yet to be.

 

[Etritonakin]

The devil COULD BE as the "prodigal son" -but he would have to choose to repent.

He was a new creature who erred -and refused to follow the reasonable rules of his fathers house -and even tried to take his father's house from him -so God essentially kicked him out. God's mercy never fails, but neither will he bear with evil.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To create good in the world as much as you can either in your immediate family or with your fellow man.

Agreed...

Being Dharmic and responsible is a very high thing anyone can do whether they believe in God or not.

I can understand and can agree to this

The highest thing you can do is search for God.

Tis an exercise in futility. Others can do the searching should they choose to.

If you can't do that or rather choose not to then serving God through being a good husband, brother, wife, sister, neighbor, employee, or whatever it is you do and do it with a sense of good nature and try to make the world a better place in that way.

With exception to that which I've underlined I agree. As far as not choosing to believe in "God".....I was born Atheist as I've come to think we all were. I can only speak for me as truly growing up a non-believer as I suspect most have been "taught" they should believe along the way.

My Guru says meditate on God.
When you can't meditate on him, then pray to him. If you can't pray then serve your fellow man for God. When you can't serve then talk about God. If you can't talk about God then read truths about God. If you cant read then think about God.

To each his own. IMO tis an exercise in futility.

do what you think is best for your growth as a being and for the people around you. It's all a step by step process and we all must start somewhere.

I can agree to this.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Dirty Peguin,

I'm glad you can at least understand and agree on most of my points. It's good that you are of the mind of being a good moral person. It is a good strong foundation. If belief in God or truth comes later then you won't have bad evil habits to reverse which can be hard to overcome. You will also elimate suffering later if you can be good to the people around you now.

 

[Clear]

Malachi Said in the first post : “Think about it if he created everything and he knows everything doesn't that mean he wanted Lucifer to fall?”

Malachi, please keep in mind that I am certainly no philosopher, nor a theologian in my comments. I think your logic is perfectly fine and I even agree with your conclusion IF you assume the modern theories that God created all things out of nothing (ex-nihilo creation); 2) that he is absolutely omnipotent (i.e. could have done ANYTHING he wanted); and 3) that God was Omniscient (i.e. knew what the results of his creative acts would be). Thus I think I have to agree with you that any modern christianity that makes those same three specific assumptions (ex-nihilo creation, absolute omnipotence and omniscience) is trapped inside the conclusion you made (and several uncomfortable moral dilemmas which may follow those assumptions). However, as a Christian with a specific historical orientation, I think the assumption that God created everything out of nothing is incorrect and thus, speculations based ON those specific assumptions will never make sense, nor can they support a reasonable and logical theology.

Your assumptions and the conclusions do not apply to all Christianities since some Judao-Christianities do not make those specific assumptions. For example : From a historical viewpoint, your assumptions do not apply to the early Judao-Christianity which believed in the eternal existence of matter and that intelligent spirit was made of some sort of matter. For those Judao-Christians, these assumptions and conclusions based on those assumptions, do not arise in the same manner.


THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-EXISTING MATTER CHANGES THE CONCLUSIONS
For example, the physical body of a baby is not created out of “nothing”, but rather the material forming a growing embryo comes from pre-existing material nutrients it finds in it’s environment. Just as an embryo physically organizes itself from the milieu it finds itself in; the “self-willed” matter spoken of in the Pistis Sophia is intelligent matter which, over a great deal of time, forms into a cognizant spirit, capable of progression and choice.

In ancient Judao-Christianity, intelligent matter making up spirits was not created "out of nothing" any more than planets were created "out of nothing". In this model, God takes disorganized matter (having it's own characteristics such as mass and taking up space), and organizes it into a planet or star.

“And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).

From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed :

“And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

In this early Judao-Christian theology, all things are made of matter (which has always existed). Matter also had it’s own inherent characteristics (mass; takes up space, etc) which was not given it by God, but it possessed such characteristics as part of basic reality in this theology.

Just as matter, (From which God created Stars, and worlds, etc) always existed in this Judao-Christian Theology, spirits existed as well :

”... I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits. (1st Enoch 40:1)

The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to :

“... write all the souls of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5)

Just as matter has characteristics which are part of it’s nature, spirits or “self willed matter” as the Pistis Sophia describes them, had characteristics which were part of their nature. They were, at some level, cognizant and self-willed and capable of progression.

Since ancient Judao-Christianity was so very different than modern Judaism and modern Christianity, you might want to consider how THEIR theology affects your question.

For example If the early NON-ex-nihilo Judao-Christian doctrine is correct then conditions were different. In their theology :

1) God is in the midst of unorganized matter, including self-willed spirits
2) the intelligent spirits are capable of progression

In early Judao-Christian doctrine, a simple change of one of your three underlying assumptions, changes the type of speculations which result. Given the early Judao-christian conditions that God is in the midst of self-willed and less intelligent spirits that are capable of progression :



3) God may intervene in the development of these spirits or not intervene

4) Whether God intervenes or not, the spirits will change and progress

5) These spirits may progress toward civility and social unity and happiness and in good ways.
6) These spirits may progress toward anarchy and social disunity and unrest and evil ways.

If God is full of both knowledge and love, will he intervene to their benefit or not?

7) If God plans to intervene and assist them in progressing in ways that are most beneficial to them, then what sort of knowledge is most important for immortal spirits to learn FIRST.

For example, does he teach them productive social interactions or moral law first, or does he first teach them chemistry, or botany, or construction, or economics (etc)?

I believe that if they do not learn to live social and moral law first, then other types of knowledge are not as apt to result in social happiness, civility, unity and joy for them as a group. What happens if they learn how to build weapons BEFORE learning patience enough not to use weapons upon simple frustrations.

9) If God has love and wants these self-willed spirits to be able to live with one another in unity and joy in a social “heaven” that will last, then these spirits must be taught principles underlying and upon which unity and joy are to be obtained and sustained.

10) If some self-willed spirits will NOT choose to live in a social group and obey laws upon which such a social unity and joy exist, then they must be excluded from those who chose to live moral and social laws which create and sustain unity and joy. Malignant and evil individuals would destroy the unity and happiness of such a social group if they were allowed to live among them.


11) There must be a sieving or separation of spirits into differing levels of willingness to live such laws ; and those willing to live only lower levels of moral and social laws, and perhaps into groups unwilling to live any level of social moral laws.


My point is NOT to shove an ancient Judao-christian model at you, but to allow you to make a different set of considerations based on earlier Judao-Christian theology rather than on the current modern Christian assumptions you are making.

In any case, let me know if these considerations seem illogical to you and, if they make sense, perhaps I could introduce some consideration from early Judao-Christianity that might affect your speculations regarding Lucifer and his fall and any legitimate role Lucifer plays in God’s plan.

Questions regarding the origin and purpose of Lucifer were questions the prophets themselves asked. Abraham asks God :

“ How then, since he [lucifer] is now not before you, did you establish yourself with (him)? (The Apocalypse of Abraham 20:5-7)

The Prophet Sedrach asked a similar question :

“If you loved man, why did you not kill the devil, the artificer of all iniquity? Who can fight against an invisible spirit? He enters the hearts of men like a smoke and teaches them all kinds of sin. (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The answers that God gives the prophets in the ancient christian theology, seem, to me, to make a great deal of sense, but only if they are kept inside the ancient context. They do not make the same sense if taken out of that context and one tries to place them into a more modern Christian theory where God creates all things, including Lucifer, “out of nothing”.



Clear
drnetzzz

 

[ellenjanuary]

Syntax error. "God" does not "want."

 

[Skwim]

Syntax error. "God" does not "want."

Ah, the whole premise of sin/salvation is predicted on what the Christian god wants.

Want (w

nt, wônt)v. want·ed, want·ing, wants
v.tr.

1.

a. To desire greatly; wish for:
b. To desire (someone to do something):
​

2.

a. To request the presence or assistance of:
b. To seek with intent to capture:
​

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, auuugh, this again. However, I'm still not really understanding how "free will" is a sensible concept when God can see the future.

Oh well.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Well, there ya go.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Think about it if he created everything and he knows everything doesn't that mean he wanted Lucifer to fall?

Lucifer had a free will

 

[Etritonakin]

Lucifer had free will, but why?

God created beings which possess creativity -and planned to ultimately reproduce himself.

At the heart of creativity is the ability to make choices.

Free will IS essentially an expression of creativity.

Those beings themselves are a system -and were created within a larger system.

Those beings were NEW and IGNORANT.

God taught those beings what to do and not do in order to not destroy themselves and their environment.

However, if you'll pardon the expression, those beings did not know God from Adam!

God has existed from eternity with the Word -but these beings were new to everything.

These factors created the potential for error, doubt, sin/disobedience.

God knew he could not reproduce without creating this potential, and planned for it. He considered everything, and went ahead with his plan.

It was perhaps inevitable that one would, in ignorance of the fact that God knew what he was talking about, turn his creative ability toward his instructions, and disobey -but this does not mean God knew it would be Lucifer. Lucifer is a good name -he was not called Satan (adversary) until he rebelled.

The potential for error, doubt, sin/disobedience CAN be eradicated -by experience. Those new beings were allowed to choose wrongly, but also have the oppportunity to learn from their mistakes, and again choose rightly. Still, they must choose it.

God then allowed Satan to affect hummanity -knowing that humanity also needed experience -and to learn that God is telling the truth.

 

[EtuMalku]

It is this exact Creative Principle that you are referring to which created this Abrahamic god, not the other way around.

Lucifer would be the personified Principle of progress and intellectual inquiry.

In the Abrahamic myths Lucifer makes His debut in the Testaments as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die.

Lucifer brought us the Truth and our Free Will, shows us the way to either be One with God or to be a God ourselves

Lucifer had free will, but why?

God created beings which possess creativity -and planned to ultimately reproduce himself.

At the heart of creativity is the ability to make choices.

Free will IS essentially an expression of creativity.

Those beings themselves are a system -and were created within a larger system.

Those beings were NEW and IGNORANT.

God taught those beings what to do and not do in order to not destroy themselves and their environment.

However, if you'll pardon the expression, those beings did not know God from Adam!

God has existed from eternity with the Word -but these beings were new to everything.

These factors created the potential for error, doubt, sin/disobedience.

God knew he could not reproduce without creating this potential, and planned for it. He considered everything, and went ahead with his plan.

It was perhaps inevitable that one would, in ignorance of the fact that God knew what he was talking about, turn his creative ability toward his instructions, and disobey -but this does not mean God knew it would be Lucifer. Lucifer is a good name -he was not called Satan (adversary) until he rebelled.

The potential for error, doubt, sin/disobedience CAN be eradicated -by experience. Those new beings were allowed to choose wrongly, but also have the oppportunity to learn from their mistakes, and again choose rightly. Still, they must choose it.

God then allowed Satan to affect hummanity -knowing that humanity also needed experience -and to learn that God is telling the truth.

 

[Beta]

..... the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die.

So where (who) is this eternal-living Eve today ???