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Featured Did Christ Die For Nothing?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I've seen, on these forums, some say Christ died for nothing, because humankind still sin, suffer and die. Some have argued that if Christ really died for sins, then there should be no unforgivable sin.
    I think these views are shortsighted, and clouded.
    I suggest understanding what sin is, and how it is dealt with, is clearly explained by the apostle Paul in just a few Chapters containing his letters to the Christians in Rome.
    The following points are mostly taken from Romans 5-8.

    Sin is imperfection - missing the mark of God's righteous standards.
    God's only begotten son was perfect, as he always sought to please his father. Not so with the angels that sinned. (1 Peter 2:22)

    Adam and Eve sinned - they missed the mark of God's righteous standards, became imperfect (perfection is relative from the vantage point of the perfecter).
    Sin involves wrong thinking, desires, and inclinations.
    All persons born to Adam, inherited these - they were passed on from Adam's genes, including the defects acquired due to disobedience - that is, alienation from the life that belongs to God. (Ephesians 4:18) The body deteriorates until death.

    Those who accept Christ, and live by his Law - by spirit, benefit from his ransom sacrifice, which allow them to have God's undeserved kindness, and forgiveness, and thus be acquitted of their sins, which are covered by Christ's blood. This does not undo the damage done by the sin of Adam, which we all inherit. That will occur during the millennial reign of Christ, when the resurrected are given new bodies, and those alive who survive the great tribulation, are repaired, healed completely of the damage caused by sin. From then on the process will proceed to reaching perfection - the point where Adam and Eve began, but beyond.

    Sin and Imperfection would have been eradicated
    . Any seed of imperfection that starts to grow, will immediately in a blink of an eye, be rooted out, and dissolved.
    As the fairy tales go, "They lived happily perfectly ever after." ...but this is no fairy tale.
    Christ did die for something - something of greater value than anything else. [​IMG]
    This is what I find the scriptures say.
     
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  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    There is a bit of a slight of hand to the whole thing. So as you articulate it that actually makes zero sense since it has zero to do with say a tree.or another way of putting it "reality".

    Ironically I can point out I the inverse in the global warming thread when I called out science as about 100% the cause of it. And oh do the atheists get their panties in a bunch. Reality is not our strong suit religiously or scientifically. .

    That's why the story is expressed as it is and understood as it is. But the writers understood that as they wrote. They aren't normal
     
  3. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What evidence do you have for any of this? Why do you believe it?
     
  4. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I think it is likely that we do not understand what his purpose was. As long as we feel entitled to judge and condemn others, while not actually paying enough attention to our own affairs it will continue to be the case. Our disagreeableness could likely stem from our horror and denial when seeing our own failings. It is a sort of egotism, not wanting to be the people that God created us to be. I try to be neither perfect nor imperfect but perhaps be grateful that I am as God made me, and in doing his will I satisfy him.
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeshua (Salvation) was killed for 30 pieces of silver, thus ending grace and Inheritance to those who falsely claim to 'praise the Lord' (Judah) and who think they will 'reign with God' (Israel) by theft (Zechariah 11, Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Isaiah 28).

    It is a great hypocrisy test, and Yeshua fulfilled what scriptures prophesied; just not what mankind has made up after.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    God created us. God Created sin. And do to our imperfection at creation we sin and then God demands the dept be paid. What a ridiculous system he created.
     
  7. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    It's been a long time since I read this. Perhaps it will offer some comfort.


    GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

    Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

    Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

    Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

    Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

    Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

    Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

    Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

    Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

    And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

    By Max Ehrmann © 1927
    Original text
     
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  8. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    Ah Desiderata isn't a bad choice.
     
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  9. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I have never heard anyone suggest Christ died for nothing, just because there is still sinfulness in the world. Can you provide examples of people who say this?
     
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  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    No to the OP heading question as Christ told us why he had to go. If He did not go he could not send Baha'u'llah, who is the Comforter Christ has sent.

    John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

    Regards Tony
     
  11. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    In moments of despair, I have felt it.
     
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  12. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    As far as the east is from the west,
    so far has he removed our sins from us. Ps 103

    I do not believe that Jesus' sole purpose was to be a scapegoat for a vengeful God.
     
  13. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes but when you pull yourself together you realise it is not rational, don't you?
     
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  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    For me, the #1 most likely purpose of Jesus' coming is found in his teachings with the Sermon On the Mount, namely love and compassion for God and for all of God's creation. If there's anything beyond that, I don't really much care because the Sermon pretty much says it all, imo.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Not following you....
    What are you saying? What "whole thing" are you referring to? What exactly are you referring to that doesn't make sense?

    What are you really talking about? Are you saying you don't believe the account about the original sin? That's okay. The thread is on the question of whether Jesus' death accomplished what the Bible says it did.
    If you don;t believe in original sin, then whether Jesus died or not... I'm not seeing how that would be of interest to you. Can you explain how please?
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Any of what? What's in the OP? It's in the Bible.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Ellen, for being there, looking to help us to remember to be humble in the eyes of God. i wish you success, as you keep trying to apply what you learn the father requires of you. :)
     
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  18. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    My premise is that Jesus came to demonstrate a two way path between this life and another.
     
  19. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I think people spend so much time talking about Christ they forget all about God.
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the nation of Israel did lose out, big time, but a remnant was saved, and it did allow for people of the nations to be grafted in (into the olive tree), really highlighting Jehovah's mercy.
    I like what was said at Romans 3:25 God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past.
    Showing that even before the Messiah died, Jehovah was already forgiving sins, based on the fact that the ransom was as good as paid, in his eyes.
    I like how nicely Paul's letters to the Romans so seamlessly merged the promise made to Abraham, with the connection to the ransom sacrifice of Christ.
     
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