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Debate about Heaven

Voting options on Heaven

  • I am voting for option D

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am voting for option E

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33

robtex

Veteran Member
A person in my atheist email group posted this link:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Beliefs/story?id=1422658

Putting it into the constraints of this poll the questions are rewords as such

a) Non-belief in heaven
b) Belief in heaven and you will go to heaven. Heaven is a physical place
c) Belief in heaven and you will go to heaven. Heaven is a spirtual place only
d) Belief in heaven and you will not go to heaven. Heaven is a physical place
e) Belief in heaven you will not go there. Heaven is a spirtual place only

Of the three questions were asked in which are in the poll.

1) Is there a heaven, and if so why do you percieve there to be one? If not why not?

2) If you percieve one to exist did you vote that you will go? and Why or why not?

3) If you percieve of heaven to exist is a physical or spirtual only and why do you feel the way you do?
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
There is no heaven. When my body fails my consciousness will disperse and again become part of the Cosmos.
I still don't get how 51% of people with no religion think there is a heaven.:confused:

One thing I was wondering. If the idea of reincarnation is true, it's a big universe, so why are we neccassarily reborn on this planet? Probably good for another thread.:D
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
How about: Heaven is not a place at all. It is a state of being. You can be in heaven while you still breathe air if you are at one with God.

Hell is not a place at all, it is a state of being. You can be in hell while you still breathe air if you are not at one with God.

Regards,
Scott
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Popeyesays said:
How about: Heaven is not a place at all. It is a state of being. You can be in heaven while you still breathe air if you are at one with God.

Hell is not a place at all, it is a state of being. You can be in hell while you still breathe air if you are not at one with God.

Regards,
Scott
How is that answer different than a "heaven is a spirtual place?"
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
robtex said:
1) Is there a heaven, and if so why do you percieve there to be one? If not why not?

2) If you percieve one to exist did you vote that you will go? and Why or why not?

3) If you percieve of heaven to exist is a physical or spirtual only and why do you feel the way you do?
1. Heaven as it is conventionally conceived does not exist. My own direct perception tells me otherwise. Master_Vigil and others may be able to express this more clearly than I. I have seen many odd things on my own spiritual adventure. Some of these things others would simply conclude were in fact Heaven. Close, but no cigar. Paradise realms? For sure. A place with "Heaven" on the front door. Dream on.

2. As given in answer 1. Yes. It is about perception NOT how good one has been.
The odd part here is that simply by being on your spiritual path, it will make you a "good" person. Again, being "good" is not enough. Spiritually, one has to learn to roll up their sleeves and dig in.

3. "Heaven" is a place within the heart and soul of every individual. Therefore it is both a physical thing and a spiritual thing. I might ask why would it be any other way? It is physical in that physical beings like ourselves can discover the technique for touching this reality. It is also spiritual because it can lead to a deeper appreciation of what it is we are and our place within the greater scheme of things.

Then again, I could be wrong. It's a risk I happily undertake.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
1) Is there a heaven, and if so why do you percieve there to be one? If not why not?

2) If you percieve one to exist did you vote that you will go? and Why or why not?

3) If you percieve of heaven to exist is a physical or spirtual only and why do you feel the way you do?
1. I believe in heaven because I have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and he taught that there is a heaven.

2. I voted I would go to heaven because I have not committed the unpardonable sin, which I believe is the only sin that can keep anyone from going to heaven.

3. I believe that heaven is a physical place because I believe in a physical resurrection.
 

John Debaptist

New Member
Jesus Christ is the son of God, when we read the book of Acts he was speaking to his disciples and then he started rising in the air and was later hidden by clouds. Afterwards angels told his disciples that he would return in the very same way he left. Jesus demonstrated when he rose from the dead that the glorified resurrection body has the ability to be Physical. He ate when his disciples offered him fish and a honey comb and his disciples also touched him.

Doubting Thomas touched his side. The Bible does not teach that when we die we go to immediatly to heaven. The doctrine of soul immortality came from satan the devil it came to Eve in the garden of Eden. The devil told Eve that she wouldn't die on the day that she would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He told her that on the day she would eat, her and her husbands eyes would be opened and they would become like gods knowing good and evil. What really happened was that their bodies started decaying and then they died a very physical death and didn't go anywhere. They are awaiting the resurrection from the dead at Christ's second coming when he will take those who believe in him to heaven=3rd heaven in Outer Space where the Father dwells which is in inaccesible light where no man has ever been.

The errr of Soul immortality:
Is the basis of all spiritualistic teachings that once you die you attain some sort of godhood but this is false. The Bible teaches in the book of Revelation chapter 20 that the dead shall be raised and after that they will be thrown into the lake of fire which will be planet earth burning. See revelation 20 read it carefully. Later

God will recreate the surface of our planet and at the same time destroy the wicked. Then the beloved disciple John saw and new heaven and a new earth. It is after the wicked are destroyed in the( lake of fire=planet earth burning )that God will bring heaven back to earth. He will make planet earth an Edenic beauty with glorified humans living here with him.

All of this information is found in Revelation 20 onward. Christians have been so dupped by greek mystical theology and its infiltration into Christianity that for centuries they have been confused with this false theology.

The doctrine of soul immortality is the basis for all spiritualism from Buddism to Hinduism and all nature religions. The Bible does not teach soul immortality, it teaches the bodily resurrection from the dead. When we read the Old Testament we clearly see what the Bible really teaches.

Ecclesiastes 3: states

17] I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work.
[18] I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.
[19] For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
[20] All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
[21] Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?

Also see Ecclesiates 9:

5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.
[7]
Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do. 8] Let your garments be always white; let not oil be lacking on your head. [9] Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life which he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. [10] Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
I voted option (A) for the following reasons:

1) Heaven's phyisical location is unknown and undiscovered

2) Due to lack of evidence the notion of an afterlife is an unreasonable assumption

3) dis-belief in souls which are speculated to inhabit heaven on the specific grounds of"
a) no evidence of a soul exists
b) It is not reasonable to think that every part of a human being has been found and identified except the soul.
c) the soul by the definintion of it falls outside the realm of all other cateogized parts of what makes man or beast
d) Many things I use to associate with the soul are in fact explainable with bio chemistry genetics and dna

4) Nobody has ever come back from heaven to inform mankind of its whereabouts

5) those that believe in heaven assert that they have a personal relationship with God but cannot tell you the place where He/she/it dwells despite it being their future home

6) Deep space exporation and the hubble failed to detect it as have all other means.

7) Jesus, who is asserted to have stated he was coming back to earth (presumably from Heaven) soon, has failed to return from the speculated heaven in almost 2000 years.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
YmirGF said:
1. Heaven as it is conventionally conceived does not exist. My own direct perception tells me otherwise. Master_Vigil and others may be able to express this more clearly than I. I have seen many odd things on my own spiritual adventure. Some of these things others would simply conclude were in fact Heaven. Close, but no cigar. Paradise realms? For sure. A place with "Heaven" on the front door. Dream on.
.
Now that you have made this claim why do you make this claim? What is the reason for your answer and because I am a tad confused by your notion of life after death do you believe in any afterlife?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
God is Love.

Heaven is the presence of God.

The more I am like God, the more I experience heaven NOW.

Heaven is a place you invite yourself to enjoy.

Heaven is spiritual, physical and mental.

Only you can condemn yourself to hell.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
NetDoc said:
God is Love.
Pete:
God is love
love is an emotion
therefore,
God is an emotion. :confused:

Also is God eveywhere or just in specific places. I ask because if you (as many christians do) believe that God is everywhere than how can you be out of the presense of God

Lastly if Heaven is a place you invite yourself too, than why do you have to accept Jesus first ?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Godly Love is a decision. A choice which counts others better than yourself. It has precious little to do with emotion and everything to do with sacrifice.

No, I don't believe that God is everywhere. He is light, and in him there is no darkness. If you find hate, you have found darkness and the absense of God.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Interesting that no one has yet voted for D or E, i wonder if they will ;)

I haven't voted because if i did, i'd have to tick each option.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
1. I voted A, because I do not believe in the Abrahamic heaven, which seems to be the heaven of this topic. When people die they are reunited with the guiding force of the universe. That may be heaven who can say. I think of it as "Formless God".

2. When I did believe in the Christian heaven (as I once did), the picture I had was a spiritual place only,

3. and if it did exist there is no way I would be going there now.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Halcyon said:
Interesting that no one has yet voted for D or E, i wonder if they will ;)

I haven't voted because if i did, i'd have to tick each option.
I think that's by default Halcyon.

If you believed in this heaven, you'd be doing everything you could to try and get there, rather than burn in the fiery pit.

robtex said:
Pete:
God is love
love is an emotion
therefore,
God is an emotion. :confused:

Also is God eveywhere or just in specific places. I ask because if you (as many christians do) believe that God is everywhere than how can you be out of the presense of God

Lastly if Heaven is a place you invite yourself too, than why do you have to accept Jesus first ?
I think ND was speaking of Agape love (self-giving) which is rarely emotional.
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
I believe in heaven as a physical place. I didn't vote for any option, for I believe in a physical heaven, but would I be one of its dwellers? I don't know because only God knows. If my good deeds exceed my bad ones, then I will be one of it's dwellers by the mercy of God. God is love and mercy and I am so greedy for His mercy that I implore Him to make me one of Paradise dwellers.

Peace
 

robtex

Veteran Member
ChrisP said:
1. I voted A, because I do not believe in the Abrahamic heaven, which seems to be the heaven of this topic. When people die they are reunited with the guiding force of the universe. That may be heaven who can say. I think of it as "Formless God".
Why do you reject it's existance now?

ChrisP said:
3. and if it did exist there is no way I would be going there now.
Why do you feel you would not go there?
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Peace said:
I believe in heaven as a physical place. I didn't vote for any option, for I believe in a physical heaven, but would I be one of its dwellers? I don't know because only God knows. If my good deeds exceed my bad ones, then I will be one of it's dwellers by the mercy of God. God is love and mercy and I am so greedy for His mercy that I implore Him to make me one of Paradise dwellers.
Peace
You lost me. I thought the Koran is the word of Allah as spoken by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) which tells you the way Allah wishes you to live your life. If this is correct wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that you could use the Koran as a guide to predict your chance of making it into Allah's heavenly kindom? I mean either you follow the Koran and Allah's glories are yours or you don't and He does not allow you passage correct?
 

robtex

Veteran Member
NetDoc said:
Godly Love is a decision. A choice which counts others better than yourself. It has precious little to do with emotion and everything to do with sacrifice.
ND love is an emotion. If you choose a word like "Godly Love" and change the meaning to be something other than an emotion you have made a new word or phrase that has no correlation to the original word you borrowed from to make the new word or phrase.

I am confident you didn't mean too, but what happens when you reinterpret words in phrases to have meanings different from the agreed english meaning is you accidently play semantics. We, who don't know what that you mean "godly love" when you say "love" see it as God being an emotion.

If Godly Love is a decision to put others before yourself wouldn't he just let everybody in putting their need for everlasting bliss above his need to be choosly on who enters Heaven? As a footnote to the first part why don't you call God "self-sacrifice" if it Godly love is putting others before yourself . It would be congruent with the notion of Jesus's cruxification which was a self-sacrifice.

NetDoc said:
No, I don't believe that God is everywhere. He is light, and in him there is no darkness. If you find hate, you have found darkness and the absense of God.
So your God is not omnipresent?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Peace said:
I believe in heaven as a physical place. I didn't vote for any option, for I believe in a physical heaven, but would I be one of its dwellers? I don't know because only God knows. If my good deeds exceed my bad ones, then I will be one of it's dwellers by the mercy of God. God is love and mercy and I am so greedy for His mercy that I implore Him to make me one of Paradise dwellers.

Peace
excatly .. :)
 
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