Crusades:Your Opinion

[Kilgore Trout]

Our exceptional intelligence as a species is so very often disappointing.

Sadly, our exceptional intelligence seems to be limited to individuals. Our intelligence as a species is barely functional.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

The Christian world was powerful and widespread. Even if the Muslims would've conquered the Eastern Roman Empire, which they eventually did, (and it didn't, by the way, lead to the extermination of Christianity in those lands) The Holy Roman empire would've stopped their penetration much further into Europe, just as they stopped the expansion of the Andalusian Caliphate.

Evidently you didn't do European history at school.

The invasion of Spain failed because the Arabs and Berbers spent more time fighting each other than they did fighting the Spaniards. The Turks were far more dangerous: the sieges of Vienna 1529 and Malta 1565.

Christianity not exterminated? How many Christians are there today in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, and Egypt — all former Byzantine provinces.

 

[Pegg]

Unnecessary is an understatement! The crusades were politically motivated and the church who organized it was completely corrupt.
I think revelation says it the best:

Rev 18:2 '...she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

 

[Ryujin]

Evidently you didn't do European history at school.

The invasion of Spain failed because the Arabs and Berbers spent more time fighting each other than they did fighting the Spaniards. The Turks were far more dangerous: the sieges of Vienna 1529 and Malta 1565.

Christianity not exterminated? How many Christians are there today in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, and Egypt — all former Byzantine provinces.

You've never heard of Charlemagne? His dynasty repelled the forces of the Caliphate of Al-Andalus and stopped them from expanding into France at the height of their power.

Anyway, Syria:quite a few, perhaps as much as 7 percent. A large number of those who claim to be Muslim have synchronized their beliefs with Christianity to some extent, aswell. Egypt: somewhere around 5 percent and their institutions have even remained mostly intact. Palestine: appx 4 percent. I will give you turkey, but please note that much of the difference in population is due to the fact that the Muslims tended to have larger families and were, in general, more wealthy and less likely to leave to pursue a fortune elsewhere. Also, much of the population in those countries swelled with Muslim refugees from central Asia during the expansion of the mongol empire.

And please note, also, that 7,5, and 4 percent are not numbers to be laughed at. The Jewish make up a far smaller percent of America, but enjoy cultural understanding and support from the populace.

Also, I see that you specifically failed to bring up Lebanon, which was a Christian Majority region, until recently. It was also held by many of the major Muslim powers in the Middle East.

 

[Ryujin]

Evidently you didn't do European history at school.

The invasion of Spain failed because the Arabs and Berbers spent more time fighting each other than they did fighting the Spaniards. The Turks were far more dangerous: the sieges of Vienna 1529 and Malta 1565.

Christianity not exterminated? How many Christians are there today in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, and Egypt — all former Byzantine provinces.

Also, I see you consider the invasion of Spain a failure. Why? Because the government set up there didn't last forever? Do you also consider the Achaemenid Empire a failure, on the whole? Or the Roman empire? How long must a state exist to be termed a success?

 

[Phil25]

You've never heard of Charlemagne? His dynasty repelled the forces of the Caliphate of Al-Andalus and stopped them from expanding into France at the height of their power.

Anyway, Syria:quite a few, perhaps as much as 7 percent. A large number of those who claim to be Muslim have synchronized their beliefs with Christianity to some extent, aswell. Egypt: somewhere around 5 percent and their institutions have even remained mostly intact. Palestine: appx 4 percent. I will give you turkey, but please note that much of the difference in population is due to the fact that the Muslims tended to have larger families and were, in general, more wealthy and less likely to leave to pursue a fortune elsewhere. Also, much of the population in those countries swelled with Muslim refugees from central Asia during the expansion of the mongol empire.

And please note, also, that 7,5, and 4 percent are not numbers to be laughed at. The Jewish make up a far smaller percent of America, but enjoy cultural understanding and support from the populace.

Also, I see that you specifically failed to bring up Lebanon, which was a Christian Majority region, until recently. It was also held by many of the major Muslim powers in the Middle East.

The fact is Christians declined from Majority to Minority under Muslim Rule.

 

[Andras]

I am a fan of Vlad

 

[s2a]

What do you think about Crusades?

Like any religious extremism, it is unwise to impose your religious beliefs upon others that do not care one whit about you.

EVER.

 

[Glaurung]

Some crusades were more justifiable than others.

However, the idea that they were nothing but unprovoked Christian aggression against 'progressive and peace loving' Muslims is utterly absurd. Nevermind the centuries of their relentless and bloodthirsty expansionism, which set up the conditions for the crusades in the first place.

 

[Andras]

Like any religious extremism, it is unwise to impose your religious beliefs upon others that do not care one whit about you.

EVER.

Exactly, so why do Muslims demand rights in England?

 

[s2a]

Exactly, so why do Muslims demand rights in England?

I don't know. I don't live there.

Care then to share your "answer" with the rest of us?

 

[Andras]

I don't know. I don't live there

I don't either but I do visit occasionally

 

[Ryujin]

The fact is Christians declined from Majority to Minority under Muslim Rule.

Then I'd humbly mention Greece and Macedon. Greece was under the Muslim boot for hundreds of years and yet remains nearly entirely Christian. Macedon, perhaps a better example, was for even longer and still remains majority Christian. And this is ignoring Lebanon, which I mentioned earlier, perhaps the best example.


Note: It is not lost on me that the demographics of Greece under Muslim rule were surely different than they are now. It is well documented that the Greeks ethnically cleansed some of the Turkish(mainly Muslim) population from northern Greece. Similarly the Turks nearly eradicated the Greek presence in Asia minor. The point is though that both of these acts were done for political, rather than religious, reasons and likely wouldn't occur in different circumstances. The Turks feared Greek nationalism and the potential loss of more land to the Greeks and the Greeks feared the instability that ethnic and cultural diversity brings.


Note 2: Please don't think I'm trying to defend the region's Muslims, by the way. Their militaristic expansion killed or marginalized many beautiful cultures and religions. My only point is that the Crusades were unnecessary because the Muslims couldn't expand forever and the land they did take in Europe wouldn't lose it's christian inhabitants.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

'Other' for me.
It's complex enough when discussing any one Crusade, but painting across all of them makes a yes/no answer pretty much impossible.

*Deleted *

Even people who think they are providing a straight answer are only doing so by ignoring events and answering with jingoisms.
What are your thoughts about the Forth Crusade, Sonofason?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Like any religious extremism, it is unwise to impose your religious beliefs upon others that do not care one whit about you.

The Crusades were about protecting the rights of Christians, not converting Muslims. The Crusader states had Muslim allies and about a quarter of the soldiers in their armies were Muslims. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can see the difference between justice and injustice. Incidentally, if you don't believe in foisting you beliefs on others, what are you as an atheist doing on a religious forum?

 

[LuisDantas]

Incidentally, if you don't believe in foisting you beliefs on others, what are you as an atheist doing on a religious forum?

I beg your pardon? Are you implying that we atheists can't have a legitimate interest in religion?

That is not true, nor would it make our participation in a religious education forum inadequate even if it were true.

 

[beenie]

What do you think about Crusades?

This question is even more stupid than when my neighbor asked me how my "people" felt about 9/11. I put on my best central Illinois accent and reminded the loser that I was born and raised surrounded by cornfields.

How do we feel about the (despicable) Holocaust? Was it necessary? What in the HELL kind of question is this? Pure idiocy, these types of questions.

How are we supposed to answer these questions? Is killing innocent people necessary? No.

The fact this question is even being asked shows me, once again, just how underminingly bigoted people can be.

 

[Wirey]

This question is even more stupid than when my neighbor asked me how my "people" felt about 9/11.

Your people in Cartoon World?

 

[beenie]

Your people in Cartoon World?

Yes, them.

 

[LuisDantas]

That comes with the glory of being the supreme overlady of all people, ssainhu.

Or of all cartoons. Whatever.