Creationist Challenge - Build the Ark

[japayron]

Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end... He is outside the realm of time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. God has no beginning or end... He is outside the realm of time.

I think that's a bit of a non sequitir. Nobody's been asking about God's characteristics; they've been asking about the characteristics of the Ark, which does have a beginning and end... 300 cubits apart from each other.

 

[japayron]

Thank you for correcting.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I hope your not implying that LOTR and its writer are not infallible.

I see you've been hitting the rum a little too much again, Dan.

LOTR is full of contradictions in it's Jacksonion translation into film format....the absence of the Scouring of the Shire and Tom Bombadil, Arwen's inflated role in the trilogy, but most alarmingly the bastardization of the character of Faramir.

For the record, my very first sig line here at RF was "The book version of Faramir was hotter."

Now, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Ringwraiths.....of course they all existed. I mean, Tolkien DID give maps of Middle Earth. That's proof right there. :yes:

You don't need to identify as a Tolkienite to accept the reality of Middle Earth. Go Silmarillion!!! *sings praises*

 

[S-word]

Is this a Bible only challenge? I'm not even sure if the Bible specifies the Ark being a huge boat or whatever was available to make at the time and if it specifies whether the animals were the animals of the whole world or just livestock around the area that was flooded?

I believe that most people take the Bible much too literally, I suppose that they believe also, that the bible states this universal body was created in six literal twenty four hour days.

When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the two daughters of Lot believed that all humans in the world had been annihilated, and they got their Father drunk and raped him at different intervals in order to become pregnant and to preserve the human race.

Around 2350 B.C. the time of the flood, the shores around the Mediterranean was the known civilised world that according to the Bible was inundated when the springs of the deep broke forth and it rained for forty days and forty nights and the fact that some major events such as a close encounter with a comet that may have affected the tidal rises of the oceans, plus other events that are said to have taken place around that time, is well documented.

Marie-Agnes Courty’s archaeological investigations in the assessment of natural catastrophes around this area at that time including floods and the creation of new lakes (as the springs of the deep broke forth) indicated a combination of a burnt surface horizon air blast, consistent with a Tunguska-like fireball as occurred in Russia, and also the 2350 B.C. major volcanic explosion of Hekla 4 in Iceland that spewed out massive amount of Larva, which is believed to have been a major issue in the inundation of Ireland around 2350 B.C., which left it waste for thirty years, or so the story goes. But you can read it your self, Just Google up “Hekla 4. 2350 B.C.” and go to News Report on Second SIS Cambridge Conference.

Add to all this the inundation of the Black Sea at the base of the Ararat mountain range, in that same time period when the rapidly rising waters of the Mediterranean Sea broke through the mountain gorge. Perhaps the Ark had been built on high ground forcing the animal population which were the livestock around the area that was being flooded, which were attempting to escape the rising waters, forcing them into Noahs traps, and the ark was washed out to sea, to eventually be washed into the Black Sea and hung up on the Ararat range somewhere.

The only scriptural evidence I can provide to support the theory that it was only the known civilised world of that day from Egypt and all around the coast of the Mediterranean, is from the Book of Jubilees 4: 23; And he (Enoch) was taken from amongst the children of men, and we (The Angels) conducted him into the Garden of Eden in majesty and honour, and behold there he writes down the condemnation and judgement of the world, and all the wickedness of the children of men. And on account of it (The God ‘Hide Thyself&#8217 brought the waters of the flood upon all the land of Eden.
Eden is not the entire earth, but in ancient religious writtings it generally refers to the area around Egypt

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that most people take the Bible much too literally, I suppose that they believe also, that the bible states this universal body was created in six literal twenty four hour days.

Why's that so odd? IMO, once you've taken as given the existence of a god that can do anything, everything becomes plausible.

 

[tumbleweed41]

S-word and Snowber,
This challenge is aimed at Biblical Literalists, those who's dogmatic belief in a seven day creation and a worldwide flood is central to their theology.
(There are those who have stated unequivocally that if these stories are not to be taken as literal truths, then they must discard the entire Biblical scripture.)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'd like to issue a challenge to all Creationists. If you can build an ark to the specifications in the Bible and fill it with two of every "kind" of animal by your own hands (remember Noah had no one to help him), set it afloat with you and your family on board and keep all the animals alive for 40 days, I will convert to Creationism.

If there are other evolution accepting people willing to pledge their conversion to Creationism on completion of this challenge, please post below.

I'll do better. Let them have all the help they need and build it with wood we have today and I'll convert.

Actually there have been some "attempts" to make an ark. Check this out.

http://creation.com/one-man-and-a-vision-johan-huibers-ark-builder-in-netherlands

I think that is (half) the length as the supposed Noah ark. You'll also notice this ark is not in the water. It appears to have been made on a platform. So far I've read nowhere, where this things has been placed in the water is is capable of floating.

There are other arks around the world but all of them have similar issues.

Hong Kong Christens an Ark of Biblical Proportions - WSJ.com

Arks From Around The World

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Whether or not the story is true, the proposal is a slap in God's face whether God is real or not. God obviously governed what happened (if it happened), so to ask someone to do such a thing is just as silly as it is for creationists to ask you to believe in such a thing.

Two sides to the same coin if you ask me :yes:

Please spare me.....No one is challenging the lord your god....Just the people who profess the belief in this copied story. As it has already been shown.... there are plenty of ark builders around the world. Is that a slap in "God's" face because they wanted to build a replica in order to share their beliefs and gain converts....or is it just a slap in (YOUR) face?

 

[averageJOE]

He only had to have a representative of all the air-breathing kinds of animals.

So he had to get a whale on the ark!!!

 

[Man of Faith]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked? Could God have guided the waves and water to make sure Noah and the animals were okay? I don't discount that. Knowing God like I do, I think he could have did it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked?

Sure. As long as you've got an all-powerful god running around, nothing's impossible; you've got a ready-made mechanism for any crazy idea you want. And the Flood myth doesn't work unless you assume such a god from the outset, so someone who wants to believe in the story literally always has a reason in his pocket for when an Ark recreation doesn't work.

However, that's just the excuse if things fail. What if they were to work?

 

[Baydwin]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked? Could God have guided the waves and water to make sure Noah and the animals were okay? I don't discount that. Knowing God like I do, I think he could have did it.

Sure you can believe that.
But if you do so you must forgo any uses of the term "Creation Science", or of using any scientific data to try and justify your beliefs.
Why? Because if you have a God who will micro-manage every aspect of existence, science would be incapable of making predictions and so would be useless.

 

[Autodidact]

Like I said, forget the animals. If anyone builds a boat entirely of wood of that size and sends it out on the seas and returns in one piece, I will personally convert to fundamentalist, evangelical Christianity. Hey, MoF, if it fails, will you deconvert?

 

[johnhanks]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked? Could God have guided the waves and water to make sure Noah and the animals were okay?

This to me has always been one of the foundational weaknesses of the whole story: yes, of course the god you believe in could have 'guided the waves and water' and supernaturally taken care of the ark etc; but in that case what was the point of the ark in the first place? If god was going to intervene and keep Noah and the animals safe whatever happened, why bother with the cockamamie boat? For this reason alone the story has 'folk myth' written all over it.

 

[Autodidact]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked? Could God have guided the waves and water to make sure Noah and the animals were okay? I don't discount that. Knowing God like I do, I think he could have did it.

Yes, the mythical figure, God, could do anything He wanted, by magic. He could have magically manufactured enough water to flood the world, then magically evaporated it. He could have planted all the fossils where they are so as to fool us into thinking that evolution was true. He could have made a world that appears to be 4.56 billion years old, but is actually only 6000 years old. If so, science is impossible, and no religionist should appeal to it to support his personal mythology. Further, the story therefore has the same credence as any other culture's creation myth, and has the same evidence in its support. There is no such thing as creation science.

And so we join Man of Faith in marching backward, against scientific progress, back to the time when the world was a place of myth and magic. First step: trash your computer.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sure. As long as you've got an all-powerful god running around, nothing's impossible; you've got a ready-made mechanism for any crazy idea you want. And the Flood myth doesn't work unless you assume such a god from the outset, so someone who wants to believe in the story literally always has a reason in his pocket for when an Ark recreation doesn't work.

However, that's just the excuse if things fail.

What if they were to work?

God-did-it...!!!.....:slap:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Has anyone considered that this was a God project? Even if we couldn't duplicate it today, God still could have saw to it that it worked? Could God have guided the waves and water to make sure Noah and the animals were okay? I don't discount that. Knowing God like I do, I think he could have did it.

You could assume this all you like but what's the point.....Couldn't your god just as easily waved his magical pinky toe and "created" it all (perfect)..Why all the theatrics?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This to me has always been one of the foundational weaknesses of the whole story: yes, of course the god you believe in could have 'guided the waves and water' and supernaturally taken care of the ark etc; but in that case what was the point of the ark in the first place? If god was going to intervene and keep Noah and the animals safe whatever happened, why bother with the cockamamie boat? For this reason alone the story has 'folk myth' written all over it.

Well, this is why an "All powerful"..."All knowing"....(god) is mythical. Gods are a by product of human thought that were/are mentally created in an attempt to reconcile ones inability to understand the natural world or beyond (space, solar systems, galaxies, universe) .

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes, the mythical figure, God, could do anything He wanted, by magic. He could have magically manufactured enough water to flood the world, then magically evaporated it. He could have planted all the fossils where they are so as to fool us into thinking that evolution was true. He could have made a world that appears to be 4.56 billion years old, but is actually only 6000 years old. If so, science is impossible, and no religionist should appeal to it to support his personal mythology. Further, the story therefore has the same credence as any other culture's creation myth, and has the same evidence in its support. There is no such thing as creation science.

And so we join Man of Faith in marching backward, against scientific progress, back to the time when the world was a place of myth and magic. First step: trash your computer.

Uhh, forget that sista....My boss just bought me this new (shinny - pretty).....and I'm not done filling it with MP3s...and smut.....:flirt: