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Featured Creation Science House Bill 3826

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Skwim, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Active Member

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    You are right blind faith does not support anything but ones own belief such as in an intelligent designer. You have no evidence that is supportive yet there is evidence for the development of complex organic compounds especially in an environment devoid of life that could utilize such complex organic compounds. Creator vs Intelligent Designer explain the difference in what you believe. Still if you have the evidence - any reliable evidence I would like to know.
     
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  2. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Interesting. From what I can see, the RNA world is healthy and being actively investigated. In fact, as we learn more, the probabilities increase at every stage. I notice your quote is rather old....
     
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    And the experts in the field seem to think you are wrong in this assessment. I wonder who I should trust on this?
     
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  4. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Your beliefs are not irrelevant. People who believe Genesis cannot also believe abiogenesis. It's impossible.

    You are discussing abiogenesis to voice your opinion. I doubt you have the education to make a scientific conclusion regarding abiogenesis. If I am wrong, then you should be writing scientific papers to educate all those scientists who are spending a lot of time researching abiogenesis.

    My opinion means nothing more than your opinion. However, I do have faith that the scientists who are researching the subject will be able to explain it just as they have been able to explain the origins of humans.

    I linked to several papers in another thread. A YEC thought he found a "gotcha". Check out my post #486 here...
    The creator did it.
     
  5. Astrophile

    Astrophile Member

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    Stephen Meyer's surname is spelled with two e's.
     
  6. Astrophile

    Astrophile Member

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    The name is actually 'semantics'.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Just like Michael Bhe's?
     
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  8. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Lord have mercy, i just came on intending to respond to yesterdays posts and now i got 16 other posts.

    Sorry folks, its not gonna be possible for me to respond to all of this due to time constraints. That said. I will get to work now responding to a post from yesterday and make my way forward.
     
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  9. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Nothing has changed in 10 years. Te same old platitudes that believers in aboigenesis continues to use, more and more is being learned, it is just a matter of time ..........................................................................................................

    This is simply not true, abiogenesis research is stagnant and so far from the goal as to make what has been learned in biochemistry paltry.

    The probabilities as you put it have not increased, in fact, at each step problems have arisen that do not to increase the probability but reduce it.
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Where is the evidence you speak of ? Cite it
     
  11. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And how do you know this? And how do you calculate the probabilities? I have as of yet to see a creationist odds argument that cannot be refuted without any math at all.
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    How would you be able to judge it? Most creationists do not even understand the concept of evidence. The concept of scientific evidence is well defined. It is too bad that creationists will not let themselves learn what is and what is not evidence.
     
  14. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Thats like saying a book is not made from intelligence because the letters on the page are ink chemicals that bind to the paper via set law interactions.

    The fact remains though, that the letters are still aranged to form sentences and paragraphs in order to conmunicate a message.

    Likewise, yes, granted, the DNA has a chemical base ladder like structure, with 4 chemical letters.

    But, this 4 letter alphabet is arranged to formulate instructions on how to build proteins and body parts. This looks uncanny to an intelligent author.
     
  15. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    What background do you have to make such a sweeping statement? It is hard to take you seriously when you show no mastery of the issues and evidence, can not spell "legitimate" and use words that do not exist (unrational ... I suspect that you mean irrational).
     
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  16. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    False equivalence. We are fully aware of the process which creates books and are unaware of any natural process that produces them. DNA reproduces naturally.

    But it isn't the same thing, no matter how you try and interpret it. It is still just physical forces acting in accordance with physical laws. You first have to demonstrate an intelligence exists that created it before you can meaningfully assert design.
     
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  17. tas8831

    tas8831 Active Member

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    Yes, it is a pretty lame response when creationists ask for something, and upon receiving it, dismiss it,.
    Why would creationists ask for that, then?
    If only that is how this discussion actually goes. Of course, one has to wonder if that criterion applies to "God said it, I believe it, and thats that", or "the bible says creation, that is all I need to know." I suspect that creationists are OK with that kind of "reasoning."
     
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  18. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    So, now, let's consider whether the arrangement of 'letters' on the strand of DNA is more likely the result of a guiding intelligence as opposed to the more complex process of natural selection.

    Sometimes, you see, the best signal for an intelligence is the *simplicity* of the design. Think of a well designed machine: every part fits together perfectly with every other part. There is efficiency and simplicity of common design.

    Things that are produced by natural selection, on the other hand, are unnecessarily complex. They are jury-rigged, have things that are spliced together, have duplications that have no effect, use similar structures for wildly different tasks, etc. The whole still works, but it is far from being streamlined or simple.

    What do we see in DNA? The second and not the first. The 'book' has randomly ordered directions, often conflicting, often turned off, often duplicated, repetitious in unnecessary ways, having a lot of nonsense (strings of the same letters in the same order over and over), etc.

    This is what is produced by selection and NOT by a designer!
     
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  19. tas8831

    tas8831 Active Member

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    Awesome. You have an extensive background in things like geochemistry, do you?
    While we certainly are a long way from knowing how life began, at least there are scientists looking into the matter - can't say the same for 'creation scientists', whose sole purpose, as far as I have been able to tell after reading their pap for almost 30 years, is to just try to convince lay folk that there are problems with evolution.

    Regarding research into abiogenesis, I present the following - all just from one guy and his collaborators (only a partial listing due to this forum's message size constraints):

    2017

    Moore EK, Hao J, Sverjensky DA, Jelen BI, Meyer M, Hazen RM and Falkowski PG Geological and chemical factors that impacted the biological utilization of cobalt in the Archean Eon. (in review)

    Hao J, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Limits on the partial pressure of H2 in the Archean atmosphere during weathering of basaltic minerals. Geochemica et Cosmochimica Acta (in review)

    Estrada C, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Selective adsorption of calcium-aspartate ligands onto [Mg(OH)2]-brucite: Implications for calcium in prebiotic chemistry. Astrobiology (in review)

    Estrada C, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Enhanced and inhibited adsorption of D-ribose with Ca2+ and Mg2+ onto brucite [Mg(OH)2]. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta (in review)

    Hazen RM Chance, necessity, and the origins of life. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A (in review)

    54. Estrada CE, Mamajanov I, Hao J, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD and Hazen RM (2017) Aspartate transformation at 200 °C with brucite [Mg(OH)2], NH3, and H2: Implications for prebiotic molecules in hydrothermal systems. Chemical Geology 457:162-172

    53. Gherase D, Hazen RM, Krishnamurthy R and Blackmond DG (2017) Mineral-Induced Enantioenrichment of Tartaric Acid. Synlett 28(1):89-92

    Wenge J, Pacella MS, Athanasiadou D, Nelea V, Vali H, Hazen RM, Gray JJ, McKee MD (2017) Chiral acidic amino acids induce chiral hierarchical structure in calcium carbonate. Nature Communications 8:15066



    2016

    Ertem G, Ertem MC, McKay CP and Hazen RM (2016) Shielding biomolecules from effects of radiation by Mars analogue minerals and soils. Astrobiology 6(3):280-285

    Grew ES, Krivovichev SV, Hazen RM and Hystad G (2016) Evolution of structural complexity in boron minerals. Canadian Mineralogist 54(1):125-143



    2015

    Liu X-M, Kah LC, Knoll AH, Cui H, Kaufman AJ, Shahar A and Hazen RM (2015) Tracing Earth’s O2 evolution using Zn/Fe ratios in marine carbonates. Geochemical Perspective Letters 2(1):24-34

    Estrada C, Sverjensky DA, Pelletier M, Razafitianamharavo A, Hazen RM (2015) Interaction between L-aspartate and the brucite [Mg(OH)2]-water interface. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 155:172-186 [pdf]

    Grosch EG, Hazen RM (2015) Microbes, mineral evolution, and the rise of micro-continents: Origin and co-evolution of life with early Earth. Astrobiology 15(10):922-939

    Nance JR, Armstrong JT, Cody GD, Fogel ML, Hazen RM (2015) Preserved shell-binding protein and associated pigment in the Middle Miocene (8 to 18 Ma) gastropod Ecphora. Geochemical Perspectives Letters 1:1-8

    Grew ES, Dymek RF, De Hoog JCM, Harley SL, Boak JM, Hazen RM and Yates MG (2015) Boron isotopes in tourmaline from the ca. 3.7–3.8 Ga Isua supracrustal belt, Greenland: Sources for boron in Eoarchean continental crust and seawater. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 163:156-177



    2014

    Hazen RM (2014) Enantioselective adsorption on rock-forming minerals: A thought experiment. Surface Science 629:11-14

    Lee N, Foustoukos DI, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD, Hazen RM (2014) The effects of temperature, ph and redox state on the stability of glutamic acid in hydrothermal fluids. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 135:66-86

    Lee N, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2014) Cooperative and competitive adsorption of amino acids with Ca2+ on rutile (α-TiO2). Environmental Science and Technology 48:9358-9365

    Lee N, Foustoukos DI, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD, Hazen RM (2014) Hydrogen enhances the stability of amino acids in hydrothermal environments. Chemical Geology 386:184-189



    2013

    Livi KJT, Schaffer B, Azzolini D, Seabourne CR, Hardcastle TP, Scott AJ, Hazen RM, Erlebacher JD, Brydson R, Sverjensky DA (2013) Atomic scale roughness of rutile and implications for molecular surface adsorption. Langmuir 29:6876-6883

    Noffke N, Christian D, Wacey D, Hazen RM (2013) Microbially induced sedimentary structures recording an ancient ecosystem in the ca. 3.48 billion-year-old Dresser Formation, Pilbara, Western Australia. Astrobiology Journal 13(12):1103-1124

    Hazen RM (2013) Paleomineralogy of the Hadean Eon: A preliminary species list. American Journal of Science 313(9):807-843



    2012

    Hazen RM (2012) Geochemical origins of life. Fundamentals of Geobiology, eds Knoll AH, Canfield DE, Konhauser KO (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford) pp 315-332

    Hazen RM (2012) An accident waiting to happen (That’s Life). Eureka, The Times 33:14-19

    Cleaves II HJ, Scott AM, Hill FC, Leszczynski J, Sahai N, Hazen RM (2012) Mineral-organic interfacial processes: potential roles in the origins of life. Chemical Society Reviews 41:5502-5525

    Lee N, Hummer DR, Sverjensky DS, Rajh T, Hazen RM, Steele A, Cody GD (2012) Speciation of L-DOPA on nanorutile as a function of pH and surface coverage using surface-enhance Raman spectroscopy (SERS). Langmuir 28:17322-17330 [pdf]



    2011

    Bahri S, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Azzolini D, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2011) Adsorption and surface complexation study of L-DOPA on rutile (TiO2) in NaCl solutions. Environmental Science and Technology 45:3959-3966

    Grew ES, Bada JL, Hazen RM (2011) Borate minerals and the origin of the RNA world. Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere 41:307-316

    Parikh SJ, Kubicki JD, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Hazen RM, Sverjensky DA, Sparks DL (2011) Evaluating glutamate and aspartate binding mechanisms to rutile (a-TiO2) via ATR-FTIR spectroscopy and quantum chemical calculations. Langmuir 27:1778-1787 [pdf]

    Cleaves II HJ, Crapster-Pregont E, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2011) The adsorption of short single-stranded DNA oligomers to mineral surfaces. Chemosphere 8:1560–1567 [pdf]

    Livi KJT, Schaffer B, Azzolini D, Seabourne CR, Sader K, Shannon M, Sverjensky D, Hazen RM, Brydson R (2011) Imaging the surface of Rutile by STEM and its implication for organic molecule bonding. Proceedings of the Microscopy Conference 2011 (MC2011), August 28-September 02, Kiel/Germany, p M6_P621



    2010

    Cleaves II HJ, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2010) Adsorption of nucleic acid components on rutile (TiO2) surfaces. Astrobiology 10:311-323 [pdf]

    Hazen RM, Sverjensky DA (2010) Mineral Surfaces, Geochemical Complexities and the Origins of Life. Origins of Cellular Life, eds Deamer DW, Szostak JW, Cold Springs Harbor Perspectives in Biology [pdf]

    Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Cleaves II HJ, Hazen RM (2010) Adsorption of L-asparate to rutile (a-TiO2): Experimental and theoretical surface complexation studies. Geochemica et Cosmochemica Acta 74:2356–2367 [pdf]

    Hazen RM (2010) How old is the Earth, and how do we know? Evolution: Education and Outreach 3:198-205 [pdf]

    Marshall-Bowman K, Ohara S, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM and Cleaves HJ (2010) Catalytic peptide hydrolysis by mineral surface: Implications for prebiotic chemistry Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 74:20:5852-5861
     
    #179 tas8831, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And that jury rigging is not seen only in DNA, we also see it in the structures that DNA produces in the body. The recurrent laryngeal nerve is a classic example of a biological kludge. In giraffes the nerve takes a fifteen feet detour. It is the perfect example of how evolution works on "good enough" rather than on intelligent design:

    Recurrent laryngeal nerve - Wikipedia
     
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