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Creation Science House Bill 3826

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Blind faith in a concept that appears impossible is a great thing, you have it re abiogenesis.

You have blind faith in spades with divine creationism. The scientific position requires no faith to hold as I will show you.

How things appear is not sufficient ground to declare a process impossible. That is the incredulity fallacy, which I've already laid out for you, Remember this written to you: "I can't imagine how it could have happened, therefore it didn't, and therefore there must be a god that made it happen."

The reason to believe that naturalistic abiogenesis occurred is that life exists, and that that life must either have been created by an intelligent designer, or assembled itself natuarlistically and without an intelligent input. Can we agree on that? If not, please suggest whatever third possibility you think might be the case.

Assuming that you have offered no third possibility, we have just the two. One must be correct, even though both seem unlikely. One requires that a god somehow can and does exist undesigned and uncreated, the other that chemicals given the proper conditions and sufficient time can order themselves into living cells. It would be a logical error to look at only one of these two possibilities, deem it unlikely, and then dismiss it as having been ruled out without noticing that what you are left with is something that is also unlikely. If you applied your argument uniformly, you would have to rule out both possibilities each for seeming unlikely, which cannot be the case if we agree that one of them must be true given the presence of life.

If we can't use unlikelihood to rule either of our choices out, we can use it to order them. Which is less likely, naturalistic abiogenesis, or some form of intelligent design to account for the first life in the universe (I am calling the possibility that some extraterrestrial race arose naturalistically and came to earth to create life here naturalistic abiogenesis even if life were designed intelligently on earth subsequently, or came to earth via panspermia just so long as the first life arose naturalistically rather than with the help of an agent that transcends our universe and was not created by it.)

Because of this claim that it seems unlikely that life could exist undesigned and uncreated, I have asked others before, and I ask you now, to name the thing that is least likely to exist undesigned and uncreated. Is it life? Not to me. It is a god. What the theist who brings the argument that life seems too complex to have arisen naturalistically and blindly is doing is trying to rectify that problem by positing something even less likely to exist without an intelligent designer, a god, to explain how life came to be. It's also a flawed argument, a form of special pleading,. The argument says that something as complicated as a cell must have been intelligently designed, but that something orders of magnitude more complex such as a god just is - no explanations needed.

That is the quality of the argument that the theist makes here, one I reject. My list of candidate hypotheses for the source of the first life on earth contains only two elements, abiogenesis and divine creation, and I put the former at the top of that list for reasons just given - it is much more likely than a god. Probability arguments in support of divine creationism such as Hoyle's Fallacy and your argument are all flawed in the same way.

So how about a rebuttal? Do you find any flaw in this argument? What part of it is invalid to you?

Believing it happened in no way counts for anything in determining if it did, the evidence for it is paltry, at the very best

The evidence for naturalistic abiogenesis grows every year. We can conceive of the process as a chain connecting atoms and simple molecules to living replicators, a chain still missing many links. The links we do have that take us from simpler substances to amino acids and from amino acids to proteins are incomplete evidence that such a process once occurred as part of a process that took us to the first life.Others have shown you much of this evidence, and I have a large collection of links that I could add to what has already been offered. So far, you've elected to ignore it all, repeating your claim that there is no evidence for abiogenesis despite the evidence provided to you to the contrary.

the RNA world is crumbling

Creationists are continually telling us that the science - evolution or abiogenesis - is in crisis. The community of scientists still plodding on researching the problem and the financial sources backing their work don't seem to have gotten the message.

I am discussing abiogenesis to show that it is a scientific impossibility.

But you haven't done that and likely cannot do that. Your argument to date is that abiogenesis seems very unlikely to you, which seems to be your basis for ruling out its possibility and substituting an even less likely alternative hypohesis, and that abiogeneis has no evidentiary support notwithstanding the dramatic progress made to date.

Our universe doesn't appear to need a god for anything. God-of-the-gaps arguments are an attempt to find some job for a god to do, in this case, create the first life in our universe. Abiogenesis is a threat to that position, as it would fill in yet another gap.

As time goes on, it is becoming clearer that we can possibly account for all of discernible reality without resorting to gods. Look how far we've come without gods in our science.

abiogenesis research is stagnant and so far from the goal as to make what has been learned in biochemistry paltry.

This is simply incorrect as has already been demonstrated to you. New links are being added to the chain of chemical evolution from elements and simple compounds to living replicators yearly
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
What I believe on that issue is irrelevant to the discussion. I am pointing out the massive flaws in the hypothesis of abiogenesis.

We honestly don't know how life started on Earth.
Do you believe that god created life?
Do you believe that god created Adam from clay or dirt, and Eve from his rib?
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
Thats like saying a book is not made from intelligence because the letters on the page are ink chemicals that bind to the paper via set law interactions.

The fact remains though, that the letters are still aranged to form sentences and paragraphs in order to conmunicate a message.

Likewise, yes, granted, the DNA has a chemical base ladder like structure, with 4 chemical letters.

But, this 4 letter alphabet is arranged to formulate instructions on how to build proteins and body parts. This looks uncanny to an intelligent author.

What objective evidence do you have for an intelligent author?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Probably referring to the Sternberg Affair.
Meyer's paper was basically a bunch of his online essays cobbled together and shepherded through the process by his pal Sternberg. It was a typical 'evolution can't explain X' deal, in this case, his twisting of the Cambrian explosion.
That's kind of what I thought, and of course since the paper wasn't actually about ID creationism, it can't be described as Meyer making a case for ID creationism to the scientific community.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your

opinion is noted, and shall be ignored.,
And I think that this is too often a trait of some of the creationists here. When they are shown to be clearly wrong, as Tas did, and as I did with over 2,000 peer reviewed articles since 2,008 in the narrow niche that you said was dead in 2007 you will just ignore the evidence that falsifies your claim.
When shown to be wrong, ignore that and keep making the same empty claims.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Regarding research into abiogenesis, I present the following - all just from one guy and his collaborators (only a partial listing due to this forum's message size constraints):

2017

Moore EK, Hao J, Sverjensky DA, Jelen BI, Meyer M, Hazen RM and Falkowski PG Geological and chemical factors that impacted the biological utilization of cobalt in the Archean Eon. (in review)

Hao J, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Limits on the partial pressure of H2 in the Archean atmosphere during weathering of basaltic minerals. Geochemica et Cosmochimica Acta (in review)

Estrada C, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Selective adsorption of calcium-aspartate ligands onto [Mg(OH)2]-brucite: Implications for calcium in prebiotic chemistry. Astrobiology (in review)

Estrada C, Sverjensky DA and Hazen RM Enhanced and inhibited adsorption of D-ribose with Ca2+ and Mg2+ onto brucite [Mg(OH)2]. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta (in review)

Hazen RM Chance, necessity, and the origins of life. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society A (in review)

54. Estrada CE, Mamajanov I, Hao J, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD and Hazen RM (2017) Aspartate transformation at 200 °C with brucite [Mg(OH)2], NH3, and H2: Implications for prebiotic molecules in hydrothermal systems. Chemical Geology 457:162-172

53. Gherase D, Hazen RM, Krishnamurthy R and Blackmond DG (2017) Mineral-Induced Enantioenrichment of Tartaric Acid. Synlett 28(1):89-92

Wenge J, Pacella MS, Athanasiadou D, Nelea V, Vali H, Hazen RM, Gray JJ, McKee MD (2017) Chiral acidic amino acids induce chiral hierarchical structure in calcium carbonate. Nature Communications 8:15066



2016

Ertem G, Ertem MC, McKay CP and Hazen RM (2016) Shielding biomolecules from effects of radiation by Mars analogue minerals and soils. Astrobiology 6(3):280-285

Grew ES, Krivovichev SV, Hazen RM and Hystad G (2016) Evolution of structural complexity in boron minerals. Canadian Mineralogist 54(1):125-143



2015

Liu X-M, Kah LC, Knoll AH, Cui H, Kaufman AJ, Shahar A and Hazen RM (2015) Tracing Earth’s O2 evolution using Zn/Fe ratios in marine carbonates. Geochemical Perspective Letters 2(1):24-34

Estrada C, Sverjensky DA, Pelletier M, Razafitianamharavo A, Hazen RM (2015) Interaction between L-aspartate and the brucite [Mg(OH)2]-water interface. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 155:172-186 [pdf]

Grosch EG, Hazen RM (2015) Microbes, mineral evolution, and the rise of micro-continents: Origin and co-evolution of life with early Earth. Astrobiology 15(10):922-939

Nance JR, Armstrong JT, Cody GD, Fogel ML, Hazen RM (2015) Preserved shell-binding protein and associated pigment in the Middle Miocene (8 to 18 Ma) gastropod Ecphora. Geochemical Perspectives Letters 1:1-8

Grew ES, Dymek RF, De Hoog JCM, Harley SL, Boak JM, Hazen RM and Yates MG (2015) Boron isotopes in tourmaline from the ca. 3.7–3.8 Ga Isua supracrustal belt, Greenland: Sources for boron in Eoarchean continental crust and seawater. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 163:156-177



2014

Hazen RM (2014) Enantioselective adsorption on rock-forming minerals: A thought experiment. Surface Science 629:11-14

Lee N, Foustoukos DI, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD, Hazen RM (2014) The effects of temperature, ph and redox state on the stability of glutamic acid in hydrothermal fluids. Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 135:66-86

Lee N, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2014) Cooperative and competitive adsorption of amino acids with Ca2+ on rutile (α-TiO2). Environmental Science and Technology 48:9358-9365

Lee N, Foustoukos DI, Sverjensky DA, Cody GD, Hazen RM (2014) Hydrogen enhances the stability of amino acids in hydrothermal environments. Chemical Geology 386:184-189



2013

Livi KJT, Schaffer B, Azzolini D, Seabourne CR, Hardcastle TP, Scott AJ, Hazen RM, Erlebacher JD, Brydson R, Sverjensky DA (2013) Atomic scale roughness of rutile and implications for molecular surface adsorption. Langmuir 29:6876-6883

Noffke N, Christian D, Wacey D, Hazen RM (2013) Microbially induced sedimentary structures recording an ancient ecosystem in the ca. 3.48 billion-year-old Dresser Formation, Pilbara, Western Australia. Astrobiology Journal 13(12):1103-1124

Hazen RM (2013) Paleomineralogy of the Hadean Eon: A preliminary species list. American Journal of Science 313(9):807-843



2012

Hazen RM (2012) Geochemical origins of life. Fundamentals of Geobiology, eds Knoll AH, Canfield DE, Konhauser KO (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford) pp 315-332

Hazen RM (2012) An accident waiting to happen (That’s Life). Eureka, The Times 33:14-19

Cleaves II HJ, Scott AM, Hill FC, Leszczynski J, Sahai N, Hazen RM (2012) Mineral-organic interfacial processes: potential roles in the origins of life. Chemical Society Reviews 41:5502-5525

Lee N, Hummer DR, Sverjensky DS, Rajh T, Hazen RM, Steele A, Cody GD (2012) Speciation of L-DOPA on nanorutile as a function of pH and surface coverage using surface-enhance Raman spectroscopy (SERS). Langmuir 28:17322-17330 [pdf]



2011

Bahri S, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Azzolini D, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2011) Adsorption and surface complexation study of L-DOPA on rutile (TiO2) in NaCl solutions. Environmental Science and Technology 45:3959-3966

Grew ES, Bada JL, Hazen RM (2011) Borate minerals and the origin of the RNA world. Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere 41:307-316

Parikh SJ, Kubicki JD, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Hazen RM, Sverjensky DA, Sparks DL (2011) Evaluating glutamate and aspartate binding mechanisms to rutile (a-TiO2) via ATR-FTIR spectroscopy and quantum chemical calculations. Langmuir 27:1778-1787 [pdf]

Cleaves II HJ, Crapster-Pregont E, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2011) The adsorption of short single-stranded DNA oligomers to mineral surfaces. Chemosphere 8:1560–1567 [pdf]

Livi KJT, Schaffer B, Azzolini D, Seabourne CR, Sader K, Shannon M, Sverjensky D, Hazen RM, Brydson R (2011) Imaging the surface of Rutile by STEM and its implication for organic molecule bonding. Proceedings of the Microscopy Conference 2011 (MC2011), August 28-September 02, Kiel/Germany, p M6_P621



2010

Cleaves II HJ, Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM (2010) Adsorption of nucleic acid components on rutile (TiO2) surfaces. Astrobiology 10:311-323 [pdf]

Hazen RM, Sverjensky DA (2010) Mineral Surfaces, Geochemical Complexities and the Origins of Life. Origins of Cellular Life, eds Deamer DW, Szostak JW, Cold Springs Harbor Perspectives in Biology [pdf]

Jonsson CM, Jonsson CL, Sverjensky DA, Cleaves II HJ, Hazen RM (2010) Adsorption of L-asparate to rutile (a-TiO2): Experimental and theoretical surface complexation studies. Geochemica et Cosmochemica Acta 74:2356–2367 [pdf]

Hazen RM (2010) How old is the Earth, and how do we know? Evolution: Education and Outreach 3:198-205 [pdf]

Marshall-Bowman K, Ohara S, Sverjensky DA, Hazen RM and Cleaves HJ (2010) Catalytic peptide hydrolysis by mineral surface: Implications for prebiotic chemistry Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 74:20:5852-5861[/QUOTE]
I have never doubted that there is a plethora of research being done. I have read some abstracts from your citations.

This isn't the issue. The issue is, how does all of the work being done effect the idea of abiogenesis ?

There are seven primary hypotheses extant on the subject of abiogenesis.

How does this research advance any of the seven hypotheses, and the critical question, how far ?

I might state that I am going to build an automobile from scratch, then find the iron ore and forge it into a lug nut.

I worked very hard at it, and the lug nut is perfect, but as to the stated end product, it means little.

And that is my point. I have read scientists on abiogenesis till I am sick to death of it. Atheist scientists.



I have followed the research as closely as a layman can by reading abstracts, synopses, and articles.

Using my analogy, they have buckets of nuts and bolts, electrical wire, yet no semblance of a car can be seen.

As is the scientific method, the RNA world supporter takes shots at the panspermia supporter, who takes shots at the deep vent or clay molecule supporter.

It is a field where true believers say it happened, they just don't know how.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have never doubted that there is a plethora of research being done. I have read some abstracts from your citations.

This isn't the issue. The issue is, how does all of the work being done effect the idea of abiogenesis ?

There are seven primary hypotheses extant on the subject of abiogenesis.

How does this research advance any of the seven hypotheses, and the critical question, how far ?

I might state that I am going to build an automobile from scratch, then find the iron ore and forge it into a lug nut.

I worked very hard at it, and the lug nut is perfect, but as to the stated end product, it means little.

And that is my point. I have read scientists on abiogenesis till I am sick to death of it. Atheist scientists.



I have followed the research as closely as a layman can by reading abstracts, synopses, and articles.

Using my analogy, they have buckets of nuts and bolts, electrical wire, yet no semblance of a car can be seen.

As is the scientific method, the RNA world supporter takes shots at the panspermia supporter, who takes shots at the deep vent or clay molecule supporter.

It is a field where true believers say it happened, they just don't know how.

Your ending claim tells us that you have not followed this rather closely. For example RNA and montmorillonite were thought to work together yet you separated them into different classes:

Montmorillonite-catalysed formation of RNA oligomers: the possible role of catalysis in the origins of life
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Your

opinion is noted, and shall be ignored.,
And that's precisely why you have zero credibility on this issue. After you claimed that origins research was "stagnant" and "hasn't progressed in ten years", Tas didn't just respond with his opinion, as in "I think you're wrong", rather he responded by demonstrating your claim to be wrong via posting a sample of published research papers.

The fact is, you are simply wrong.
 
What background do you have to make such a sweeping statement?

My backround is that i exist, have a brain that thinks critically, has done research too. And i see design just with my own observation.

It is hard to take you seriously when you show no mastery of the issues and evidence, can not spell "legitimate" and use words that do not exist (unrational ... I suspect that you mean irrational).

No, i meant unrational. As my own person, i have the freedom to make up my own words, thank you very much.

But hey, you dont have to take me serious. Take stephen myer serious and other famious ID proponents. :D
 
It's on their website:

"Should public schools require the teaching of intelligent design?
No."​


Well, ill be damed, they said it. However, theres a bit more they say.

"3. Should public schools require the teaching of intelligent design?
No. Instead of mandating intelligent design, Discovery Institute recommends that states and school districts focus on teaching students more about evolutionary theory, including telling them about some of the theory’s problems that have been discussed in peer-reviewed science journals. In other words, evolution should be taught as a scientific theory that is open to critical scrutiny, not as a sacred dogma that can’t be questioned. We believe this is a common-sense approach that will benefit students, teachers, and parents.

4. Is teaching about intelligent design unconstitutional?
Although Discovery Institute does not advocate requiring the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, it does believe there is nothing unconstitutional about discussing the scientific theory of design in the classroom. In addition, the Institute opposes efforts to persecute individual teachers who may wish to discuss the scientific debate over design in a pedagogically appropriate manner."

Stephen Meyer published a paper on ID creationism in a scientific journal? Citation please.

Yes, conveniently, the citation is on the exact same page you gave me.

https://www.discovery.org/id/faqs/

Scroll down to question number 9, its there he lists the peer reviews for ID.

And how many of those became accepted through speaking at churches, making movies, going on Christian radio, and such?

Churches or movie directors have not the power to decide what gets peer reviewed. He did not submit his papers to churches for peer review if thats what you mean. It was submitted to a science community.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
"3. Should public schools require the teaching of intelligent design?
No. Instead of mandating intelligent design, Discovery Institute recommends that states and school districts focus on teaching students more about evolutionary theory, including telling them about some of the theory’s problems that have been discussed in peer-reviewed science journals. In other words, evolution should be taught as a scientific theory that is open to critical scrutiny, not as a sacred dogma that can’t be questioned. We believe this is a common-sense approach that will benefit students, teachers, and parents.
Know why the Discovery Institute doesn't push for it? Because they know it's against the law. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. :D And do you know why they say school districts should focus on the so-called "problems" of evolution? Because it's all they have left. And guess who's at the ready to supply them with these so-called "problems," Yup, you guessed it.


4. Is teaching about intelligent design unconstitutional?
Although Discovery Institute does not advocate requiring the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, it does believe there is nothing unconstitutional about discussing the scientific theory of design in the classroom. In addition, the Institute opposes efforts to persecute individual teachers who may wish to discuss the scientific debate over design in a pedagogically appropriate manner."
They may say they believe, there is nothing unconstitutional about discussing the scientific theory of design in the classroom., but they know there is. And, of course, they oppose efforts to persecute individual teachers who may wish to discuss the scientific debate over design in a pedagogically appropriate manner." And so do I. I don't believe wishing for anything is a "persecutable" (prosecutable?) offense.

Yes, conveniently, the citation is on the exact same page you gave me.

https://www.discovery.org/id/faqs/

Scroll down to question number 9, its there he lists the peer reviews for ID.
Read it again JB, and carefully. In part:

Peer-reviewed scientific journals in which scientists favorable to intelligent design have published their work includeProtein Science, Journal of Molecular Biology, Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling,Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics, Quarterly Review of Biology, Cell Biology International, Rivista di Biologia/Biology Forum, Physics of Life Reviews,​

Note that it doesn't say they've published papers on creationism in peer-reviewed scientific journals. It simply says there are scientists who have published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, which, for all we know, could be on the issue of Peanut Butter or Jelly First on a PB & J Sandwich. who also happen to be "favorable to intelligent design." It ain't the same, and, unfortunately, the Discovery Institute is relying on just such weasel words to mislead people, as it has you.

.
 
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