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Creation Poll

How Was The Universe Created?

  • The Genesis creation story is correct

    Votes: 19 21.6%
  • God created the universe

    Votes: 17 19.3%
  • Big Bang theory

    Votes: 24 27.3%
  • Other

    Votes: 28 31.8%

  • Total voters
    88
Neitzche said:
Ye sover beings, who feel yourselves armed against passion and fantasy, and would gladly make a pride and an ornament out of your emptiness, ye call yourselves realists, and give to understand that the world is actually constituted as it appears to you; before you alone reality stand unveiled,
and
Einstein said:
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind
have nothing to do with how the universe came into being. You would imply that Neitzche was not a realist, and that Einstein was deeply religious--neither of which is true.

I can quote Darwin against Creationists because Darwin would disagree with Creationists. In order to use quotes against the Big Bang and evolution within a proper context, you have to get them from people who would have (at least hypothetically) disagreed with evolution/big bang, silly. ;)

I will not read such blashpemous writings HERETIC!!
LOL, Don't look through any telescopes either, lest they deceive you!! :)
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
have nothing to do with how the universe came into being. You would imply that Neitzche was not a realist, and that Einstein was deeply religious--neither of which is true.

I implied that Nietzche and Einstein would disagree with a naturally caused universe.

get them from people who would have (at least hypothetically) disagreed with evolution/big bang, silly.

In this thread I was not arguing against either Big Bang nor Evolution.

LOL, Don't look through any telescopes either, lest they deceive you!!

They have decieved so many already, I will not fall prey to their tricks. :)
 
Einstein believed in Spinoza's god--I think he would agree that the universe was caused naturally. Neitzche believed the universe was caused supernaturally? I don't know much about Neitzche, but given the little I do know, that is very surprising.

In this thread I was not arguing against either Big Bang nor Evolution.
So the quotes you provided weren't meant to counter or support the Big Bang or evolution? Allow me to restate what I said earlier--quotations get us nowhere when they are off topic. And look out for those wiley telescopes! ;)
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Einstein believed in Spinoza's god--I think he would agree that the universe was caused naturally.

From what I have read, he believed in an impersonal God, I would guess like a Deist.

I don't know much about Neitzche, but given the little I do know, that is very surprising.

I hadn't studied Nietzche before, If this is true I am sorry.

So the quotes you provided weren't meant to counter or support the Big Bang or evolution? Allow me to restate what I said earlier--quotations get us nowhere when they are off topic

Just because they weren't used to specify the exact method of universal creation doesn't mean they are off topic.

And look out for those wiley telescopes!

I am ever on guard against their tempting siren songs :)
 
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." --Albert Einstein According to Spinoza, Nature = God. Spinoza would say that anything that occurs--whether it be lightning, or the creation of the universe--is not "supernatural" but natural, because everything is god, and god = nature. Einstein and Spinoza would agree that the universe was formed and continues to change by natural means.

As far as Nieztche goes...all I know is that he was an atheist, so I'm pretty sure he would think the universe was formed by natural means.

Just because they weren't used to specify the exact method of universal creation doesn't mean they are off topic.
Oh, I thought you said
In this thread I was not arguing against either Big Bang nor Evolution.
 

osuwagner

Member
chuck010342 said:
if you don't belive in the litleral meaning of creation then whats stopping you from taking the other books of the bible as not being literal. I voted for creation as Genesis tells it and I belive every word of it. I don't agree with the church that Genesis is not meant to be literal.

The logic of a literal translation of the bible is much like a house built out of straw. If you believe every word of Genesis, and believe that it tells the true story of creation, then which creation story do you go by? How is it possible to believe in them both at the same time? Remember, you said that you read it literally, so did God create humans first, or humans last? Whichever answer you give, you are going to be disproving yourself. Here's a tip,....YOU CAN'T TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY!!!

Even Jesus himself understood this.

chuck010342 said:
Remeber Jesus got pretty upset when dealing with the Pharisees and Saduccess

The reason he got mad at the Pharisees was because they were taking a too literal approach to the scriptures. Forgive me, as I do not have a Bible with me at the moment, so I cannot quote exactly, but I do remember a story in the Bible about how the Pharisees got mad at the followers of Jesus for "working on the Sabbath" when they picked grain to eat. Then Jesus dismissed the Pharisees at being to literal and therefore being blind to the SPIRIT of the scriptures.

The Bible is full of contradictions. The ten commandmants state "thou shall not kill," yet there are countless examples of "holy people" killing in the old testament and then being celebrated for it. How can you posssible believe in two contradictory things at the same time?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Remember, you said that you read it literally, so did God create humans first, or humans last?

Man was created, but not finished until woman which was after all the other creatures.

The Bible is full of contradictions. The ten commandmants state "thou shall not kill," yet there are countless examples of "holy people" killing in the old testament and then being celebrated for it. How can you posssible believe in two contradictory things at the same time?

It all depends on the translation, I have heard it as Thou shalt not, kill(humans), murder, and end life of any kind.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." --Albert Einstein

Could you inform me of where you got this quote from please, I haven't seen it before.

Oh, I thought you said

I did say that I was not arguing against big bang or evolution, I was not arguing for any specific creation method, as I believe that God could have started the big bag, and this would be in concordance(is that the right word?) with Genesis.
 

kbc_1963

Active Member
The reason he got mad at the Pharisees was because they were taking a too literal approach to the scriptures. Forgive me, as I do not have a Bible with me at the moment, so I cannot quote exactly, but I do remember a story in the Bible about how the Pharisees got mad at the followers of Jesus for "working on the Sabbath" when they picked grain to eat. Then Jesus dismissed the Pharisees at being to literal and therefore being blind to the SPIRIT of the scriptures.

The Bible is full of contradictions. The ten commandmants state "thou shall not kill," yet there are countless examples of "holy people" killing in the old testament and then being celebrated for it. How can you posssible believe in two contradictory things at the same time?

Not quite true.
The jews added their own laws besides those given by moses and over time it made the sabbath a huge pain for the common man when it was intended as a communion day between GOD and his children.
So the laws he dismissed were those added in according to the understanding of the people intended to keep his word pure.

Thou shalt not kill is not contradicted as it a consideration of heavenly vs. earthly, and since we don't know all and we did,t make all then we should not of our own accord determine the fate of any creation of GOD, however since GOD made everything then he has every right to do away with anything he pleases and if he tells us to do it then as his creation we should obey or else we are like the story of the hammer turning on the one using it to question or refuse the job it was doing.
A closer study of how GOD truly works shows that if we obey him as he wishes then he will take care of removals and not order us to do these things, in the old testament it was only after a failure on our part that we are told to get our own hands dirty by killing.
 

osuwagner

Member
Mister Emu said:
Man was created, but not finished until woman which was after all the other creatures.

ok....so you didn't answer my question. What you are saying here is that you believe in the second creation story. What about the first? Is that just hogwash? And if it is, how can you just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want to believe in literally, and which parts you don't? And, how can you say you believe every word of Genesis if you then discount the first creation story? YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IN TWO CONTRADICTORY THINGS AT THE SAME TIME!
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Not quite true.
The jews added their own laws besides those given by moses and over time it made the sabbath a huge pain for the common man when it was intended as a communion day between GOD and his children.
So the laws he dismissed were those added in according to the understanding of the people intended to keep his word pure.
You're venturing into high waters here. Why? You guessed it--you're own subjective interpretation! If some of these added laws can be dismissed, then they all can be dismissed...I can think of a few that you'd want to hang on to.
 

huajiro

Well-Known Member
I am a novice at this, as I am in all aspects of religion. I have my beliefs which are not founded by in-depth research, nor by what others believe. I say this, because I would not like to be attacked for what I believe. I am sharing my views.

With most aspects of religion, you have so many confilcts because most groups want to draw a definitive line between everything. This is to scare anyone into actually thinking for themselves. You are either Christian or Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Pagan, devil-worshipper, athiest, etc.

The question of Creation vs. Evolution pins certain religious groups between certain scientists (I am being very vague so as not to draw away from my point). I have never heard of anyone trying to find an answer that could possibly involve everything. I mention this because science cannot be denied, as we have proof of it in specific evolutionary chains that we see all the way from single-cells to ourselves, with the only possible doubt being one missing link. I do however believe that there is a higher power that "created" us.

When many people think of the term "created", they think of someone snapping their fingers and it is done. If you consider that "God" is a supreme being, and that our millions of years for him could be seconds, and that he could have created us from a single-cell, as your mother creates a cake from flour, then, it all changes. Please read everything with an open mind and try to understand what exactly I am trying to say before you attack me.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Huajiro -

Great to have you on board.

When you write a post, do not be afraid of others disagreeing with you. It goes with the territory. You will find that if you use the phrase "in my opinion" or some variant of it, most people will take your statements as less of a challenge to their position. This will cut down on (but not eliminate) the amount of flak you get in response.
That said, one of the biggest strengths of this site is that when you post a statement in a thread, there will almost always be someone that will ask you to defend your position. This will result in one of two things - either you will be able to defend it (and this will strengthen your belief in your position) or you will not be able to defend it (and this should cause you to question why you believe as you do).

The weaker minds will not be able to defend their position, but will insist that they cannot possibly be wrong. These people have closed their minds to the learning process and are smug in their "correctness". C'est la vie.

Best of luck with all of your posts,
TVOR
 
huajiro-- In fact, the vast majority of theists would agree with you. Most people do not see a conflict between belief in God and scientific explanations for things like evolution.
 

huajiro

Well-Known Member
Voice of Reason/ Mr Spinkles:

I really appreciate you taking it easy on me for my first post here. I was a little intimidated when I saw how some people respond to each other here, as they do anywhere when they discuss such delicate subjects. I hold a lot of beliefs that I have not been able to express, as none of them seem to fit into any certain "category", something that brought me here in the first place.

To answer some of the comments you individually made:

Voice of Reason mentioned that "there will almost always be someone that will ask you to defend your position. This will result in one of two things - either you will be able to defend it (and this will strengthen your belief in your position) or you will not be able to defend it (and this should cause you to question why you believe as you do)."

My problem is that I believe things based on my combined experiences and education, as well as a strong feeling from deep inside that I am right. I am not one of those people who can site specific information, and tell you where to get it. This is something that would make it harder to "defend" my position.

Mr. Spinkles: You mentioned that the vast majority of "theists" would agree with me, did you mean atheists? I didn't know if it was a typo, and I would like to research more on any group that shares my beliefs.

You also said "Most people do not see a conflict between belief in God and scientific explanations for things like evolution." I am sorry but most of the discussions that I have seen are either scientists defending the physical proof that evolution has provided or Christians claiming that Satan put fossils on the planet to misdirect us.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
huajiro said:
Mr. Spinkles: You mentioned that the vast majority of "theists" would agree with me, did you mean atheists? I didn't know if it was a typo, and I would like to research more on any group that shares my beliefs.
I don`t mean to answer for spinkles but I`m sure he meant "theist".
A theist is merely someone who believes in a superior being such as the Christian god or any god for that matter.
A Jew is a theist a Muslim is a theist a Christian is a theist.
Add an "A" to theist and yoo get "Atheist" which is someone who holds no belief in any superior deity.

You also said "Most people do not see a conflict between belief in God and scientific explanations for things like evolution." I am sorry but most of the discussions that I have seen are either scientists defending the physical proof that evolution has provided or Christians claiming that Satan put fossils on the planet to misdirect us.

This is true but I believe most of the Christians you`re refering to here are not the mainstream.
The Catholic church is in agreement with evolution and many other Christian sects are as well.
They feel evolution is merely gods way of managing the world and see no direct contradiction with the bible.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
huajiro said:
My problem is that I believe things based on my combined experiences and education, as well as a strong feeling from deep inside that I am right. I am not one of those people who can site specific information, and tell you where to get it. This is something that would make it harder to "defend" my position.
Actually, Huajiro, this is not a problem for you at all. You have merely demonstrated that your positions are based on the same things we all base ours on. That is exactly why you should be willing to question your own position when it is challenged. You arrived at your beliefs by doing this very thing in the past. If you are not willing to continue on this path (hopefully for your entire life), then you are saying to yourself "The beliefs I have, I KNOW to be the truth, and it can never change!" When you cross that line, you become no better than the closed minded bigots that appear on these boards from time to time. It is my sincerest hope that you are not of that ilk.
Defending your position is actually quite fun (at least, it is to me). It forces you to consider why you believe as you do. I'm betting that you'll be a better, more informed person when the day is done. ;)

As a point of clarification, Linwood stated: "Add an "A" to theist and yoo get "Atheist" which is someone who holds no belief in any superior deity."
To be more precise, an Atheist is one that has reached the conclusion that God does NOT exist. I think Linwood is saying the same thing, but the way it is worded, it might lead you to confuse an Atheist with an Agnostic.
An Agnostic is one that has reached no conclusion as to whether God exists or not, or has decided that the existence of God is immaterial, and has stopped seeking the answer.

Thanks,
TVOR
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
I voted for G-d Created the Universe. Even now i think that evolution is a valid explanation for our origins and people that are uber-religious (and i live in Virginia home of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson:banghead3 :banghead3 ) can't understand why someone who considers themselves religious still believes in evolution. I used to work at an uber-christian grocery store called Ukrop's(that is closed on sundays and doesn't sell beer or wine) and i used to get into these arguements on creationism vs. evolution all the time. The last arguement i got into the person said "you can't put an elephant into a garage and it turn into a truck so how can an ape become a man?" I said, "Well can't G-d make an elephant into a truck? Isn't He all powerful?"
That's just my take on it. I don't see why G-d couldn't have used evolution as a means of creation.
 
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