Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

[gnostic]

My theories make accurate predictions and explain observation. These are the hallmarks of reality.

Again, you haven’t presented any evidence that these “Ancient Science”, “”Ancient Language” existing.

All you have been doing is conjecturing incessantly, without proving them.

And there have never been evidences that Tower of Babel existing. It is a myth found in the Genesis, including people speaking only one language at one time, then people instantly speaking many, so that they could not understand each other.

People didn’t speak only one language, before 2000 BCE, because writings of the Sumerians and Egyptians were different prior to 2000 BCE.

And there religions different prior to 2000 BCE, despite your claims of otherwise.

Plus there are corpus of Sumerian hymns, on Inanna, Enki, Enlil, Ninurta before the 2000 BCE.

And as I said before, some of the Egyptian pyramids at Saqqara have large amount of Old Kingdom (3rd millennium BCE) hieroglyphs on how the kings can be resurrected and ascend to meet their gods, hence the “Pyramid Texts”.

And most of the main gods are mentioned in the Pyramid Texts, also reappeared later in later texts of different periods, for instances, the Coffin Texts of the Middle Kingdom (early 2nd millennium BCE) and various versions of the Book of the Dead of the New Kingdom (late 2nd millennium BCE).

The biggest differentces between Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts and all 2nd and 1st millennia BCE, is that Old Kingdom belief is that resurrection were only reserved for the kings and queens, and they would join Re in the afterlife, while the later Coffin Texts and the Book of the Dead, resurrection and afterlife were open to all, but they have to await final judgement from Osiris.

I am not saying that I believe any of these beliefs, including Christian myth of afterlife, but I understand them.

That you knock back what I wrote about the pyramids and before that in Predynastic Egypt, only showed your ignorance on the archaeology.

But you believe in the Tower of Babel, which don’t exist at all, make your claim laughable, because of the absence of evidences of ToB, your AS, and your AL, and yet you claim you have evidences.

What a joke.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Scripture quoted without understanding of the context is easily twisted.

Why did the Pharisees complain that Jesus and his apostles did not wash their hands before eating? It was because of the elaborate ritual that hand washing had become. It was another public display of their supposed piety, taking the law to extremes is what they did and why Jesus took them to task over it. By not washing their hands in a ritualistic fashion, Jesus was teaching his disciples that taking the law to extremes was not what it was all about. Washing hands was a good thing but failure to wash especially in a ritualistic fashion to impress others, was not a big deal.

The Pharisees also accused them of harvesting on the Sabbath because they walked through a grain field and grabbed a few grains to satisfy their hunger. Balance is what Jesus taught. Your approach to the Bible is typical of the fault finder. If you want to find fault, God will let you find as many as you desire.

That is merely an excuse of apologists. Clearly Jesus did not think that washing the hands mattered, from Mark 7 15:

" 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. "

 

[Deeje]

Yes. You are supposed to teach your children to think for themselves and not indoctrinate them with your own beliefs.

Balance is the key. We must equip our children to understand that all humans have beliefs, and they have the free will to express them....for now. But unlike those who disparage Bible believers as uneducated morons, Christian parents need to teach their children the truth. That truth is buried under a pile of garbage and it takes some time and effort to sort out which is which. They will figure it out for themselves.

And here we go again Deeje. How many times do we have to explain that you can have faith in God and believe in evolution at the same time Deeje?! Good grief...

No, I'm sorry but the two are completely incompatible. We have to choose. There is no safe middle ground here....a foot in both camps is not possible. Those who think so are in for a rude shock IMO.

I agree. We should teach them all creation myths and all religions along with evolution and Raëlism and all other possibilities. Not only what you believe to be true.

If there is a course on comparative religions then I believe that is a good thing. We need to understand what others believe if we are to converse with them in a mature and balanced way.

Well of course they are. Religion is the opium of the people and your belief is your happy pill. I'm not on drugs.

Spirituality is like a muscle, not a drug. If it is not exercised, it atrophies and becomes useless. Children are the most spiritual creatures on earth, but if that spirituality is not nurtured, it becomes deactivated. Later in life though, it can be kick started again and they can embark on their own quest for meaning to their existence.

Hope for a happy life after death is not a cure for depression Deeje. If you think your life is without meaning and purpose get professional help.

I don't just have a hope for life after death, which I believe will be achieved by resurrection, but I also have the hope of living through the end of this old world system and on into the new one.
My life without hope of something better than this poor excuse for an existence is based on what my heart tells me. This is not the life I was designed for....and squabbling humans will never provide it. I have great expectations for the future, why would I be depressed? Depression make people feel hopeless. What hope have unbelievers got? Depending on man for their future is not exactly an exciting prospect given his track record.

 

[ArtieE]

When you have been educated by a system with strong beliefs, those beliefs become ingrained in your thinking, affecting your attitude towards anything that conflicts with it....whether science or religion, the process is the same. It's called indoctrination for a reason......science "beliefs" can be indoctrinated just as much as religious beliefs because it is basically the same process. Minds are being fed a constant, reinforced series of ideas that are accepted and acted upon. The subject matter isn't important...it's the process.

Everybody go to a search engine and put in JW brainwashing.

Only when those who support evolution, (which has no real evidence to support its validity) recognise that they do indeed only have a belief in what scientists are claiming, rather than a substantiated provable truth, will they understand why they cling to it with a 'religious' passion and why they believe that people must subscribe to it. Why is that so important? Because it validates their own position and makes them feel less threatened about not believing in a Creator to whom they might be accountable.

Huh? Accountable to a god? I don't believe in an afterlife anyway and you said when I die I just stay dead so what am I supposed to feel threatened by?

 

[Deeje]

Everybody go to a search engine and put in JW brainwashing.

Anyone can claim brainwashing if they are raised by unbalanced parents. Its not the religion but the person practicing it that does the damage. Not everyone has the capacity to handle things as they should be handled. Raising well balanced children, (the most important job in the world) doesn't need a license or qualifications. Go figure. The Bible at least provides guidelines to follow....and they work if implemented correctly.

Brainwashing can be done by atheists as well you know. Indoctrination is not the sole problem of religion.

Huh? Accountable to a god? I don't believe in an afterlife anyway and you said when I die I just stay dead so what am I supposed to feel threatened by?

What is your personal belief ArtieE? Do you believe that this life is all there is? Does anyone really know for sure?
There is no threat. If you accept that this life is all there is for you, then all will proceed as you expect. God offers something so much better but he forces no one to accept it because there are terms. Not everyone likes the terms and will prefer the alternative. It a choice.

 

[ArtieE]

Scripture quoted without understanding of the context is easily twisted.

Why did the Pharisees complain that Jesus and his apostles did not wash their hands before eating? It was because of the elaborate ritual that hand washing had become. It was another public display of their supposed piety, taking the law to extremes is what they did and why Jesus took them to task over it. By not washing their hands in a ritualistic fashion, Jesus was teaching his disciples that taking the law to extremes was not what it was all about. Washing hands was a good thing but failure to wash especially in a ritualistic fashion to impress others, was not a big deal.

I see. So Jesus taught everybody that failure to wash was not a big deal. Got it. There goes the importance of hygiene.

 

[Deeje]

I see. So Jesus taught everybody that failure to wash was not a big deal. Got it. There goes the importance of hygiene.

Yep, in the big picture they all went to hell in a handbasket... Please.....its about balance. Do you have any?

 

[ArtieE]

No, I'm sorry but the two are completely incompatible. We have to choose. There is no safe middle ground here....a foot in both camps is not possible. Those who think so are in for a rude shock IMO.

How are they in for a rude shock? If they don't get to any heaven won't they just stay dead like you said?

I don't just have a hope for life after death, which I believe will be achieved by resurrection, but I also have the hope of living through the end of this old world system and on into the new one.
My life without hope of something better than this poor excuse for an existence is based on what my heart tells me. This is not the life I was designed for....and squabbling humans will never provide it.

You are a squabbling human.

I have great expectations for the future, why would I be depressed? Depression make people feel hopeless. What hope have unbelievers got?

I hope my existence is more beneficial than detrimental to the well-being and survival of my society and the people living in it. That is the purpose and meaning of my life.

 

[ArtieE]

What is your personal belief ArtieE?

Don't have any.

Do you believe that this life is all there is?

No idea and no beliefs regarding the matter.

Does anyone really know for sure?

Some think they know for sure because of subjective experiences.

There is no threat.

They why did you claim that atheists feel threatened?

 

[ArtieE]

Yep, in the big picture they all went to hell in a handbasket... Please.....its about balance. Do you have any?

Yeah... pretty good but not good enough for tightrope walking.

 

[ArtieE]

If you accept that this life is all there is for you, then all will proceed as you expect. God offers something so much better but he forces no one to accept it because there are terms. Not everyone likes the terms and will prefer the alternative. It a choice.

What is it with you that can make a god say: "I want to spend an eternity with Deeje!"?

 

[cladking]

And most of the main gods are mentioned in the Pyramid Texts, also reappeared later in later texts of different periods, for instances, the Coffin Texts of the Middle Kingdom (early 2nd millennium BCE) and various versions of the Book of the Dead of the New Kingdom (late 2nd millennium BCE).

You simply keep ignoring the evidence, ignoring the logic, and ignoring my argument. Meanwhile believers in all things "science" and all things "evolution" are merely citing that which they believe agrees with them but ignores the fact that there is no evidence of gradual change in species.

The difference is I can tell you what every single one of those gods really represent and do it in the words of the people who wrote them. But you ignore it. Rather than see they called "nehebkau" the hydraulic cycle in plain English you will continue to believes in Nehebkau The Go Between God because this is what Egyptologists believe. I can prove that the writers of the Pyramid Texts didn't even have a word for "belief" and prove that Egyptology used illogical methodology to come to their conmclusion but this doesn't matter to you because you already have all the answers. You can just google them up and see what the Pyramid Texts really mean and how Egyptologists are punching through the gobbledty gook to make sense of the writing. Any Egyptologist wil tell you that Egyptology is a science even though there exists no direct evidence the great pyramids were tombs, no evidence they were built with ramps, no evidence that there was no change in the language and the only thing suggesting they were superstitious is bad methodology.

But you don't care about logic, evidence, and proof and care only about what google says.
If you really want to discuss this we'll have to take it to another thread because it will quickly drift off topic. People don't like to discuss it because it falls far outside their comfort zone. People relish in being at the crown of creation and don't want to share their position with the stinky footed bumpkins they believe built the pyramids and invented agriculture by means of the theory of change in species. It's bad enough they were stinky footed without also being religious farmers.

I have evidence and "proof" but you believe that can't hold a candle to google or consensus.

 

[gnostic]

You simply keep ignoring the evidence, ignoring the logic, and ignoring my argument.

I am not ignoring your evidences, because you have not presented any.

All you are doing is sprouting what you believe in, and that has nothing to do with evidences, which don’t exist.

The only person ignoring evidence, is you.

It is every easy to look up the archaeology of Egypt, of both Predynastic Egypt and Bronze Age, to know what their culture were like and what they believe in.

You have also ignored the archaeological evidences of Chalcolithic Uruk and Bronze Age Uruk, which you easily find.

And your argument is warped as your logic.

As I keep saying to you, you have shown no evidences to back up your arguments, just heap of wishful speculations and personal belie of this Ancient Language and Ancient Science. Your logic is merely confirmation bias and circular reasoning, which are fallacies.

 

[gnostic]

When you have been educated by a system with strong beliefs, those beliefs become ingrained in your thinking, affecting your attitude towards anything that conflicts with it....whether science or religion, the process is the same. It's called indoctrination for a reason......science "beliefs" can be indoctrinated just as much as religious beliefs because it is basically the same process. Minds are being fed a constant, reinforced series of ideas that are accepted and acted upon. The subject matter isn't important...it's the proces.

You, silly girl.

You don’t know anything about indoctrination.

In high school and in universities, I didn’t know anything about evolution because I was never a biology student. My biology study stop in Year 9 high school, so I didn’t get far enough to learn about evolution, when I was that age. My main focus in science (bothat high schools and colleges) were physics, chemistry and mathematics. So there were no indoctrination for me in regarding to evolution.

And second, although I was serious as a teenager about joining my sister’s church, and have read the bible, from Genesis to Revelation, back then I believe in all of it, but I had also believed in UFO, ghosts, spirits and demons.

But during that time I was believer of Genesis creation and flood, I was completely unaware of people who referred to themselves as “creationists”.

When I stopped going to church and I didn’t touch the bible for 14 or 15 years, it had nothing to do with being an atheist. I just had other concerns and priorities that took precedence over religion. I didn’t stop believing, during my 14-year hiatus.

And during that whole time, I knew nothing of creation vs evolution debate.

It is only when I picked up the bible again, when I was 34 (2000), that I have doubts of the bible.

Again, my doubts stemmed not from evolution or from atheism.

It stemmed from re-reading the bible, and when I think about what the 2 churches had taught me, when I was a teenager, that the seed of skepticism grew from.

And it wasn’t creation and flood that I questioned first. No, it was supposedly the OT “prophecies” of Jesus, like gospel of Matthew reinterpretation of prophecies of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Re-reading Isaiah and Jeremiah and other prophecies, I came to realise the NT interpretations and church teachings that made question the bible, not atheism and not evolution.

The only indoctrination I received came from church teachings and church interpretation of the bible, and the New Testament itself.

It was only in 2003, when I join my first forum - Free2Code - that I first heard of evolution and creationism. It was easy to understand what Creationism is, because I have already know the creation and flood stories in Genesis, but I didn’t know what anyone was talking about evolution.

So in order to understand evolution, I had borrowed my cousin’s old uni biology textbook. I still have his book because he past away (cancer) a couple of years later.

That’s how I learned evolution. I may be no expert in evolution or the biology, but at the very least, I can understand what everyone is talking about. Also with my background in civil engineering and computer science, I have more than solid grounding in testing, measuring, detecting, finding evidences and experiments, especially since both courses require me to understand physics, and it is applied physics, not theoretical physics.

Like I said, I am no expert in biology, but I know enough about scienceand know enough about testings and evidences, to know when you are talking BS, Deeje.

And there is no indoctrination involved with me learning evolution, and I was never under any pressures by biologists, so you are basically using straw man.

You are so unbelievably dishonest, by using straw man tactics.

 

[gnostic]

You simply keep ignoring the evidence, ignoring the logic, and ignoring my argument. Meanwhile believers in all things "science" and all things "evolution" are merely citing that which they believe agrees with them but ignores the fact that there is no evidence of gradual change in species.

The difference is I can tell you what every single one of those gods really represent and do it in the words of the people who wrote them. But you ignore it. Rather than see they called "nehebkau" the hydraulic cycle in plain English you will continue to believes in Nehebkau The Go Between God because this is what Egyptologists believe. I can prove that the writers of the Pyramid Texts didn't even have a word for "belief" and prove that Egyptology used illogical methodology to come to their conmclusion but this doesn't matter to you because you already have all the answers. You can just google them up and see what the Pyramid Texts really mean and how Egyptologists are punching through the gobbledty gook to make sense of the writing. Any Egyptologist wil tell you that Egyptology is a science even though there exists no direct evidence the great pyramids were tombs, no evidence they were built with ramps, no evidence that there was no change in the language and the only thing suggesting they were superstitious is bad methodology.

But you don't care about logic, evidence, and proof and care only about what google says.
If you really want to discuss this we'll have to take it to another thread because it will quickly drift off topic. People don't like to discuss it because it falls far outside their comfort zone. People relish in being at the crown of creation and don't want to share their position with the stinky footed bumpkins they believe built the pyramids and invented agriculture by means of the theory of change in species. It's bad enough they were stinky footed without also being religious farmers.

I have evidence and "proof" but you believe that can't hold a candle to google or consensus.

What a load of craps.

Do you even understand what proof is?

Proof isn’t evidence.

According to mathematicians and scientists, proof is merely a logical statement, often including a mathematical equation or formula.

Only mathematicians and theoretical physicists (like in the fields of Superstring Theory, Multiverse model, etc) used proofs, because it cannot be tested in experiments.

Testable hypotheses required either evidences from experiments or discovered in the fields.

Of course, you don’t believe in evidences being discovered in the field, which show little you understand science.

You are pathetic.

 

[gnostic]

The difference is I can tell you what every single one of those gods really represent and do it in the words of the people who wrote them. But you ignore it. Rather than see they called "nehebkau" the hydraulic cycle in plain English you will continue to believes in Nehebkau The Go Between God because this is what Egyptologists believe. I can prove that the writers of the Pyramid Texts didn't even have a word for "belief" and prove that Egyptology used illogical methodology to come to their conmclusion but this doesn't matter to you because you already have all the answers. You can just google them up and see what the Pyramid Texts really mean and how Egyptologists are punching through the gobbledty gook to make sense of the writing. Any Egyptologist wil tell you that Egyptology is a science even though there exists no direct evidence the great pyramids were tombs, no evidence they were built with ramps, no evidence that there was no change in the language and the only thing suggesting they were superstitious is bad methodology.

Man, you are ignorant.

The Pyramid Text are only found in Saqqara, of few pyramids (eg Unas of the 5th dynasty, and Teti, Pepi I and Pepi II, and few other minor tombs of 6th dynasty.

The pyramids of Giza (4th dynasty) don’t have the Pyramid Texts, because I wasn’t talking about pyramids of Khufu, Khafra and Menkaure.

Man, pay attention, and stop making things up that I didn’t say.

 

[gnostic]

What is it with you that can make a god say: "I want to spend an eternity with Deeje!"?

I would preferred total oblivion or even obliteration than spending eternity with Deeje and the likes.

 

[sayak83]

You simply keep ignoring the evidence, ignoring the logic, and ignoring my argument. Meanwhile believers in all things "science" and all things "evolution" are merely citing that which they believe agrees with them but ignores the fact that there is no evidence of gradual change in species.

The difference is I can tell you what every single one of those gods really represent and do it in the words of the people who wrote them. But you ignore it. Rather than see they called "nehebkau" the hydraulic cycle in plain English you will continue to believes in Nehebkau The Go Between God because this is what Egyptologists believe. I can prove that the writers of the Pyramid Texts didn't even have a word for "belief" and prove that Egyptology used illogical methodology to come to their conmclusion but this doesn't matter to you because you already have all the answers. You can just google them up and see what the Pyramid Texts really mean and how Egyptologists are punching through the gobbledty gook to make sense of the writing. Any Egyptologist wil tell you that Egyptology is a science even though there exists no direct evidence the great pyramids were tombs, no evidence they were built with ramps, no evidence that there was no change in the language and the only thing suggesting they were superstitious is bad methodology.

But you don't care about logic, evidence, and proof and care only about what google says.
If you really want to discuss this we'll have to take it to another thread because it will quickly drift off topic. People don't like to discuss it because it falls far outside their comfort zone. People relish in being at the crown of creation and don't want to share their position with the stinky footed bumpkins they believe built the pyramids and invented agriculture by means of the theory of change in species. It's bad enough they were stinky footed without also being religious farmers.

I have evidence and "proof" but you believe that can't hold a candle to google or consensus.

Oh please let's discuss Egyptology in another thread. That is going to fun. Hee Hee.

 

[gnostic]

But you don't care about logic, evidence, and proof and care only about what google says.

This is more straw man.

I didn’t use google or Wikipedia about the Pyramid Texts, because I already have a (reprinted edition) copy of Raymond Faulkner, hardcopy, as well as his translations on the Coffin Texts and the Book of the Dead.

You don’t know me, and you don’t know books I have read, nor what I personally own.

Tell me, do you like lying about people? Are you proud of being a liar?

My former profession was a civil engineer, but I am currently working as a computer programmer and network administrator. But one of my passions, apart from art, history, archaeology and astronomy, are ancient and medieval literature, especially those with mythological or folklore contents.

I have build up a fair size library on ancient literature, especially on Classical Greek and Roman myths, on medieval Celtic and Norse myths, but my library on Egyptian and Mesopotamian myths are smaller.

Nevertheless, I have read all 3 Egyptian funerary texts (PT, CT and BotD), but I also have translations of creation myths too.

So no, I don’t need google to know what I am talking about.

So please, stop lying about what I didn’t do. You are really pathetic that you have to resort to such tactics.

 

[gnostic]

Oh please let's discuss Egyptology in another thread. That is going to fun. Hee Hee.

Cladking don’t know what he is talking about. He wouldn’t know Egyptology if it was right in front of him.

What is with creationists, sayak83? They have to claim on things that they clearly don’t understand.