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Featured Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    From the other thread......scripture included. As this is quite long...I'll split it up.

    Off to a good start. [​IMG]

    Agreed. [​IMG]

    Disagree. [​IMG]
    Chapter 2 is a "history" or a recap, (not necessarily in chronological order) adding detail that is not recorded in the basic account of what is recorded in Chapter 1. There is only one creation of mankind and the other creatures who inhabit planet Earth....they had one assignment....to reproduce and fill the earth.

    Genesis 1:26-28..."Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”

    Why would God make two separate creations of humankind? And what makes you think that there are two?

    In Genesis ch 2 it says that in the earth, for Adam, "there was no helper as a complement of him. 21 So God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And God built the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman, and he brought her to the man. . . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

    If other humans existed, then why did God have to create a mate for him?

    Genesis ch 3 continues on from ch 2, detailing the unfolding events pertaining to the first humans and their alienation from God. Because of their disobedience, they were expelled from the garden to eke out an existence on cursed ground.

    "After this Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she had to become the mother of everyone living."

    Now if Eve had to become the "mother of everyone living" that rules out any living humans in existence before her. It also makes no sense that Adam could find no mate if there were other women in the world.


    Not sure how the genealogy "not leading to Jesus" fits in here...? You see in Genesis 3:15, we have the first prophesy given as a response to the fall of man. It was a veiled reference to the remedy that God would apply, to undo what Adam had done to his offspring, (condemning them to death because of his disobedience.) in alluding to the sacrifice of Jesus. If other humans existed before Adam and Eve, then how did all humans descended from this "one man" inherit his sin? (Romans 5:12) :shrug: Only Adam's offspring were affected.

    The word used here is rendered more correctly as "blameless" rather than "perfect". There were no "perfect" humans descended from Adam. His firstborn son became a murderer, such was the power of sin handed on from his parents.
    A man who is "blameless" is one who walks in integrity despite his sinful nature...like Job....and Abraham.

    The "sons of God" were angels, materialized in human form, who took the "daughters of men" and produced a hybrid offspring known as the Nephilim. These monstrous half-humans were violent and sex mad and they filled the earth at that time with a situation God would not tolerate, so he brought a drastic end to their existence and all the sinful humans influenced to emulate them.

    Which is why it makes no sense for there being other humans before the creation of Adam and Eve.
    If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, the one redeeming has to pay the right price to release the one in debt.

    What Adam lost for his children was perfect, sinless life in paradise.....Adam eventually paid for his own sin with his own life, but there was no one to pay the redemption price for his children. Perfect, sinless life was lost and a perfect sinless life was required to pay the debt. This is why Jesus had to come from outside the human race....he was perfect and sinless. If other humans had existed apart from Adam then they would not have had the defect of sin that he passed on, so your scenario doesn't make sense to me.

    Yes, we are all of necessity descendants of Noah. But how does that fit in with your scenario? Anyone who tries to imply that creation and evolution are somehow the same story are suffering from wishful thinking IMO.
     
    #1 Deeje, Mar 11, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    This makes no sense.

    The line of the Messiah comes through Seth......this lineage in Luke leads from Noah to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    "son of Noah,
    son of Laʹmech,
    37 son of Me·thuʹse·lah,
    son of Eʹnoch,
    son of Jaʹred,
    son of Ma·haʹla·le·el,
    son of Ca·iʹnan,
    38 son of Eʹnosh,
    son of Seth,
    son of Adam,
    son of God."
    (Luke 3:23-28)

    Disagree....the "male and female" created in Genesis 1 are the same male and female spoken about in Genesis 2 and 3.

    Oh, but I believe it is. The "evolutionary process" is assumed by scientists, not proven. We are speaking about macro-evolution here...not adaptation. Science has postulated a theory and built a house of cards into a monolith of suggestion. Science cannot prove that evolution ever took place or that it is even possible the way they say. It has observed adaptation and made wild claims that it cannot back up with substantiated evidence.

    In Genesis there is a direct creation of every living thing, beginning in the oceans and finishing with the creation of man. There is no evolution in the Bible. What is misunderstood is the time taken for each creative "day". I believe that this is what best explains the situation.

    If each creative period was thousands or even millions of years long, then we are looking at a slow and deliberate process of creation over eons of time, with God taking time and care to craft each creature. It also explains why there are no intermediate links in a chain to other creatures. Each was a separate creation. Each had the inbuilt ability to adapt to new circumstances (environment or food sources). Adaptation occurs within a single family of organisms.

    Genesis allows for an old earth by separating the first verse from the following ones. The creation of the "heaven and the earth" was a separate event, long before the preparation of the earth for habitation began. The creative periods did not have to be 24 hour days. The Hebrew word "yohm" (day) can mean an undetermined length of time.

    Each "day" had a beginning and an end, but that is where I believe the similarity ends.

    According to the Bible, Noah was "blameless"...not "perfect". Considering that his conduct was the very opposite to that of the general population of his time, he might have looked "perfect" to God because his family were the only ones worth saving.

    Correct.

    There was no need to till the ground until Adam was kicked out of the garden. They initially ate only fruit...remember? (Genesis 2:16) The "history" in ch 2 & 3 relate to the humans and what happened as a consequence of their choices. They lost so much when they chose to rebel.

    Only when the ground was cursed did God tell Adam they had to eat "bread" until they returned to the dust.

    "And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

    It was a very different life now to the one in the garden.

    No sorry, I cannot come to the same conclusion at all...but thanks for the exercise. :)
     
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  3. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    Deeje wrote:

    "Evidence:

    E1: The creation in chapter1 describes the creation of the universe from the Big Bang (let there be light - initially photons only existed prior to even atoms) the creation of the universe, the creation of the stars, earth moon, sea life, plants, animals and humans.

    Agreed. [​IMG]"
    --------------
    Disagreed. The ancient world picture contains "only" the local part of the creation, namely the Milky Way and everything in it. The numerous cultural stories of creation deals specifically with this part - and the best of the cultural cosmological stories also speaks of the basic cosmological principles in the creation, often symbolized and described with a prime male and female creator and not just a monotheistic and personified Christian god.

    The Jewish/Christian creation story is skewed because the mythical allegories is personalized instead of a cosmological interpretation of the story. One can get a more logical and natural idea of the cosmological creation story by reading of the Egyptian "Ogdoad" - Ogdoad - as well as from other cultural stories of creation.
     
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  4. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    So women weren't created the way a man were but were created as an afterthought because God had forgotten to make a helper for the man to begin with?
     
  5. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Does that indicate that God looks much closer to a primate than, say, a spider?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  6. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    One misses the entire point by interpreting these sentenses as personal human matters instead of mytho-cosmological informations. "Eve" represents the mythical theme of the Mother Goddess which is specifically connected to the Milky Way, as also with the Egyptian goddess, Hathor - Hathor - Wikipedia

    Again, the Jewish/Christian monotheistic/patriarchal interpretation of the creation have forgotten the ancient mythical and symbolic language and description of the ancient cosmos. The "expulsion from Eden" has nothing to do with a human obedience but with a mytho-cosmological description of the formation of everything in the Milky Way.
     
  7. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    I suppose so. First he makes all the animals, male giraffes and female giraffes, male elephants and female elephants, then male humans and.... "oops, forgot the female humans.... have to improvise, I'll just take a rib."
     
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  8. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Well, for sure He must have been very proud with His work with chimps and gorillas in order to make the pinnacle of His creation, the very reason the Universe exists, looking like one of them.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #8 viole, Mar 11, 2018
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  9. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    Animals were created with inbuilt instinct...pre-programmed to do what is necessary to sustain their existence without having to plan much of anything. They live in the present with little thought of the past, and with no real concept of the future. Humans, however, were not created that way. We alone are made to reflect the qualities of the Creator. We have to be educated to make our way successful, which is why the man was created first. God used the time before the creation of the woman to educate him. She was created as a "complement" of him, which means that all she was, made him complete. They were to be partners for life, so God educated Adam and he educated her...together they would educate their children. That makes perfect sense to me.

    Not even sure what that means.....are you asking if God looks like an ape?

    It would not occur to you that the Creator might just know what he's doing and that it matters little if you have no interest in understanding any of it.....If he doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about...do you? But what if he does, and you are just another godless unbeliever shooting your mouth off? :shrug:
    God has a record of dealing with those who see a reason to mock him. At what point do you think those opposers lost their smirk?

    Who said humans are the reason that the universe exists? We are merely a part of material creation, as angels are part of spiritual creation. Each exists in their own realm, with their own role. I'm not sure that they were ever intended to interact in the beginning, but they ended up that way because one of them stepped out of place and created a situation that needed fixing.

    Well designed machinery can function flawlessly until something gets loose and gets out of alignment....the whole machine can break down as a result and will need repair by an engineer who can identify the problem and replace the faulty part, fixing any damage caused by it. God is the engineer of creation.

    In his creative works, God is what all artists are.....creative. Many human artists create similar works with similar themes, but one will be outstanding and become recognised as his greatest work.

    Among all of the lifeforms that inhabit this planet, who can argue that humans are superior in many ways....particularly with regard to intelligence. Only in relatively recent times have humans become so enamoured with their own intelligence that they have abandoned belief in God to turn to worship of their own intellect....making gods out of high ranking scientists and those acclaimed in the world of academia.

    I'm sure that the Creator finds human egos rather amusing. I know I do. :D
     
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  10. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    mmh, yes. Actually no, I am asking if He looks more like and ape than, say, like a spider.

    What do you think?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  11. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Here's at least one other person I will be sharing Hell with according to Deeje: 22. Was God really hoping Adam would find a suitable partner among the animals?
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    What do I think? I think it's a silly question. God has no physical form. It is his qualities that we reflect, not his shape.

    You don't know much about God, do you?
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    "Sharing hell"? I don't believe in that kind of hell. That is a pagan myth adopted by an apostate church in the early centuries.

    I believe that God simply gives us the choice between life and death.
    There is no immortal soul to reward or to punish. It is this life where we prove worthy of the life to come....or not.

    Death is nothing more than a sleep....some God will awaken...the rest will never wake up. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

    It's really that simple.
     
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  14. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    Then tell us everything you actually know about God outside of what your holy book says since we can read. Does it all just come from your holy book and if not share with us all you actually know beyond what your holy book says.
     
    #14 ArtieE, Mar 12, 2018
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  15. ArtieE

    ArtieE Well-Known Member

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    You said and I quote:

    "It would not occur to you that the Creator might just know what he's doing and that it matters little if you have no interest in understanding any of it.....If he doesn't exist, you have nothing to worry about...do you? But what if he does, and you are just another godless unbeliever shooting your mouth off? :shrug:
    God has a record of dealing with those who see a reason to mock him. At what point do you think those opposers lost their smirk?"

    What is it you are threathening me with if there's no torture or hellfire or eternal pain or anything just not existing? Not existing is supposed to be bad when I don't even exist to feel bad for not existing? Without any punishment you have nothing to threaten with...
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Unless it wasn't a rib. :)
     
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  17. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    Butting in to point out that you know next to nothing about evolution, or how science works.

    You are though quite open to making all manner of false and rather absurd statements about their nature, and likewise statements of facts not in evidence about the nature of your "god".

    Do you find this to be entirely honourable and respectable? As a "Christian" and all.
     
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  18. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
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    This is garbage. Concept or not, even lowly creatures like some birds and squirrels for example plan the future, by stashing food away from prying eyes. Many other animals plan for the future - chimpanzees for example, gather a group together to raid or hunt other species that they will eat, and cooperation between members of many species is very common - when planning future events. You really do need to brush up on these matters. And many animal species remember quite a lot from the past, such as who has wronged them, been their friend, etc., - no thought to the past? :wolfface:

    Not half as amusing as many seem to find you. You know, there was a time before religions took hold. Were we really just animals then? Many would see the era of religions as being the dark ages - me for one. :p
     
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  19. cladking

    cladking Active Member

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    Indeed!

    Animals display lots of "intelligence". I put the word in quotations only because what we usually call intelligence doesn't really exist at all.

    A few weeks ago I saw a female cardinal land at the top of a very unstable stalk of hosta seeds in order to eat them. Cardinals seem to eat these every January even if they have access to the sunflower seeds that are among their favorites. They preferentially eat hostas in January. As it was balancing on the stalk its mate landed at the point that this stalk intersected another one and grabbed them both with his feet which stabilized the stalk allowing the female to more easily get the seeds at the top of the stalk.

    This is most assuredly not "instinct". One could argue that making sacrifices to keep a mate is instinct but certainly not the calculations this bird had to make to solve the problem.

    Only modern humans lack instinct and it's not so much they don't exist as it is that we overrule them in most cases by using knowledge and belief instead. We can get away with this because we've mostly eliminated the human predators in our environments.

    Our understanding of evolution is wrong. Experiment is right but this has been extrapolated incorrectly.
     
  20. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    It always kind of surprises me how nominal Christians are so free about
    simply making things up, saying whatever opinion comes to mind for all the world as if it were somehow established fact.

    There is no integrity in it at all.

    Then, they think that we should somehow accept their word on things
    far more difficult to "know" than some simple biology? ha. Not a chance
    there is just no credibility there at all.

    Unless they are shills for some anti religious cause, they might do welld
    to go hide and keep their mouths shut, as ambassadors for the Faith, they
    are not much of a success.
     
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