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Featured Countries banning of kosher meats are forcing "expulsion" of Jews

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, May 16, 2019.

  1. charlie sc

    charlie sc Well-Known Member

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    I asked for you to cite your experts. Unfortunately, my standards for evidence are much higher than yours. Perhaps this is my fault.

    No.

    I wouldn't expect anyone to sift through a thread in a discussion for some link.

    Sure.

    You said "The various experts on that particular side say that it isn't a reflection of any feeling while the experts on the other say that it is."

    I asked you to cite those experts; you cited the side saying shechita slaughter is humane done correctly.

    You gave a citation that I critiqued and for good reason. I wasn't critiquing another link because you did not give another link.

    You then proceeded to mention both sides. I'm only talking about one, because that's the link you gave. So, I have no idea why you mentioned the other side.

    That link appeals to authority because there are no references(no evidence) and it only says what the supposed experts say. I don't take appeal to authority sources seriously, especially in a debate, because they offer nothing of value. You gave nothing of value in this discussion to me. Other people, and I'm sure you get them in abundance here, will find nothing wrong with appealing to authority.

    I'll show you the type of data I prefer. Here's one such scientific study done that found animals slaughtered ritualistically are more stressed than non-ritualistic slaughtering Analysis of Stress Indicators for Evaluation of Animal Welfare and Meat Quality in Traditional and Jewish Slaughtering. Cortisol and catecholamine were significantly higher in the shechita exsanguination phase than non-ritualistic slaughtered cattle. This means they were extremely stressed during this process. To go further, the Jewish farms chose cattle that were docile. So, before they were slaughtered, they had less cortisol and catecholamine than the non-ritualistic farms. This means that they were calmer cattle to begin with but were extremely stressed by the end.
     
    #441 charlie sc, May 23, 2019
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Interesting links...….
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Since I have made no claims that require any standard, you would have a hard time determining my standard.
    I would expect anyone who wades in to a pre-existing discussion to be up to date on the various parts of it. If not, I would expect the person to read up before saying anything. But maybe my standards for intelligent conversation are higher than yours.
    Because all I could do was cite the experts on that particular side of the issue since it is the one I referenced and found when I searched for a video. There was an expert on the other side which I linked to but that would require that you sift and read. You asked if I could "The various experts on that particular side" so I did just that. I linked to the website I found in my search and listed the people on that site who spoke for (as you asked) "that side."
    But you didn't critique the link. You misstated my position claiming "You claimed THIS site was an expert site" which, as I pointed out, i never did.
    Only because I had already linked to another site which presented a speaker for each position. I didn't reiterate anything about the other side because it wasn't relevant to what I found when doing the search for this particular video.

    That's very nice. If I were engaging in any sort of debate about kosher slaughter vs. any other, I would go through that study and, no doubt, proffer other studies.
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you say. I was just willing to provide the video so that any claim that said video didn't exist could be abandoned. As a side note, I don't think I made any claim about any calming process -- that might have been someone else.
     
  5. charlie sc

    charlie sc Well-Known Member

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    Sigh. Bellow is what you said about experts when replying to someone else.
    I asked you for citations. Bellow is what you replied and linked.
    I don't know what's wrong with you.

    I'm sure you would.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Probably was the OP. If you link a video I will watch it. I watched videos to the contrary. I will have to double check to see if some Muslims are rethinking what is and what is not halal. Perhaps some of the Jews should do the same for what is and what is not kosher.
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    This is the video. Again -- not for the squeamish.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And even that video shows the animal noticeably struggling after its throat is cut. And that is when "done right". I think that is what is being objected to.
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    How do people justify a distinction between mammals and fish in terms of killing? Have any countries passed laws regulating how fish are killed (not about preventing inadvertently catching dolphins but how to kill the ones intended to be killed)? Is there a belief that fish don't feel pain or suffer in the same way (that was something I was told the first time I went fishing..."they don't feel the hook in their faces" -- I never quite believed that)?
     
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  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Like all things it is a judgment call. We tend to be more empathetic to those that we are more closely related to. Since we are much more closely related to other mammals than fish that may explain why we care a bit less about fish. Also we do not have the ability to judge as well. How does one tell the pain level of fish? And then think of what we do to lobsters. Drop them live into a potful of boiling water. Our relationship to them is even more distant and we have no clue as to their pain indicators. I can see some merit in being a vegan, but I also know that people are omnivores and if we ignore part of our natural diet there can be negative results.
     
  11. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    However there are regulations on fishing. How fish can be caught, baited, stored, etc. Also when the fish are killed, it's usually just swift beheading.
     
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  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I guess that gets to the heart of my question -- are there laws about this? Can fish be caught with a hook and thrown on the deck? Wouldn't there be pain and/or suffering? As SZ pointed out, isn't boiling lobsters alive logically an inhumane practice? Is the underlying premise that fish DON'T feel pain and is this proven or just a guess? The next question would be about birds (I'm not moving to bugs just yet). If there is a law about one animal, why not others? I'm just trying to understand the method of selecting to what it is applied.
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I can't remember the name of the extreme sect (cult?) where people have to even go so far as to brush off an area that they are going to sit on, lest they crush a bug. Sooner or later it is simply not practical. As I have pointed out it is all a mater of relative humaneness and what we can reasonably do.

    Aha! I love Google, I was close in my spelling and it did the rest:

    Jainism - Wikipedia
     
  14. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Yes, there are fishing laws. Fishing is under the same type as hunting, however, so comparing it to livestock slaughter is quite uneven. It has also been determined scientifically that fish don't feel pain, primarily because they lack a developed neocortex and can't process the sensation. Lastly yes, there are also laws regarding poultry housing and slaughter.
     
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  15. Ancient Soul

    Ancient Soul The Spiritual Universe

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    Ha, I never told you any such thing. You are free to follow whatever stupid man made placebo for true spirituality you want. I just pointed out that it is just another stupid man made belief that has NOTHING to do with being truly spiritual.

    And you can protest all you want but "kosher slaughter" IS cruel and inhumane. It is a lie to say otherwise.
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    This article is 5 years more recent and says that the scientific evidence is that fish do feel pain and it discusses the expert claims on both sides. Interestingly, it has this quote, "In 2013, the American Veterinary Medical Association published new guidelines for the euthanasia of animals, which included the following statements: “Suggestions that finfish responses to pain merely represent simple reflexes have been refuted. … the preponderance of accumulated evidence supports the position that finfish should be accorded the same considerations as terrestrial vertebrates in regard to relief from pain.”
     
  17. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    That article was all over the place, and noted a few points where the scientific community is at odds with whether they can or cannot feel pain. The article takes the bias of "they can, those scientists just haven't come around yet."

    The article does note, however, that fish farms slaughter their fish humanely. So whether they can or can't feel pain is somewhat irrelevant; in the same situation as livestock, the humane methods is used by law. Personal fishing is still on the same grounds as hunting, yet still has expectations and regulations.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Only on fish farms in a very select set of countries. I would expect other countries to adopt the killing methods for their farms and maybe even outlaw open sea fishing which is not (to my mind) like a single hunter stalking an animal, but a massive collection on an industrial scale.
     
  19. charlie sc

    charlie sc Well-Known Member

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    I love how this has gone on to fish.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Give me your very best reason why you say this. Be specific.
     
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