Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe i have had all the evidence I need. However you are correct in that it is not evidence that you have experienced and most people are not willing to trust another person's experience.
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Could you be wrong?
- Thread starter JJ50
- Start date
I believe i have had all the evidence I need. However you are correct in that it is not evidence that you have experienced and most people are not willing to trust another person's experience.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe people who do not know Jesus personally can have doubts. It is not so for someone who does.
I trust my own experience of the faith, which wasn't a good one.
This is a common view among some Christians, but it unrealistically challenges believer's sincerity, and yes people can sincerely sincerely believe in a religion and sincerely change their mind and believe differently. .
Why would you highlight the worst of human society? Most humans aren't like that! "Most" are / were just unassuming, regular people. They've died the death Adam brought on us all. -- Romans 5:12
And whom Jehovah God wants to resurrect, is up to Him. There may be some who won't be resurrected...they have already been thrown into the second death.
Take care, my cousin.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
I used to post at Quora and I had exchanged views with a JW - on that exchange of views I found out that JW did not believe in "hell" aka the second death. According to her, hell is a figurative speech not a real place. And what happens to bad people - those people who are not going to be saved? According to her, Jehovah would just snuff them out of existence, like the Thanos thing....
She added that a loving God is incapable of letting people suffer in in hell through out eternity. In my opinion, she is right, if what she said isn't explicitly and emphatically mentioned in the bible. But I could read this.
Revelation 14:9-11 New International Version (NIV)
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
And who are these people who will be tormented with burning sulfur? Those who are damned in hell - on Judgement Day. Hell is a place which God will create on Judgement Day, today Hell is the grave but on Judgement Day it would be a fiery one.
Revelation 20:7-10 New International Version (NIV)
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is hell in our time - when one dies he makes his bed in hell
Psalm 139:8 New International Version (NIV)
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
But on Judgement Day, it would be a different kind of hell
Mark 9:42-48 New International Version (NIV)
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
Muffled said:
I wanted to add that this also leads to the assumption that a 'true' believer cannot be wrong. Considering the immense diversity of conflicting religious beliefs of fallible humans this belief is a problem concerning the claim 'true' belief cannot be wrong..
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Any understanding for which I do not have experiential evidence is subject to being wrong.
faith and reason
. . . also experimental and evidentiary knowledge is subject to change with new evidence and research.
Faith and reason aren't good bedfellows.
. . . but poor bedfellows remain permanently intertwined. Dependency and the desire of sense of belonging rules. Regardless of what we believe most if not all justify it by their own reason.
Audie
Veteran Member
Audie said: ↑
Summed up with " Man says, God says".
or, "I believe Jesus".
Which of course is actually about personal
infallibility.
You do not appear to have wondered very hard
about what I said.
I refereed to people saying they believe
what "god" said. But they all have different
meanings, and THAT is what they believe.
I did not say that "Jesus" was fallible, though
being a human being, we assume he made
mistakes.
HOWEVER, nobody actually knows what he
really said, or meant by what he did say.
For unevidenced assumptions, we have that he
was actually a holy man, and that what he said
was actually recorded accurately, and that you or
anyone can figure what he meant.
See why I said people who just say "I believe
god" are really saying they themselves are infallible?
That goes for you too.
Audie
Veteran Member
You know him personally, though you've neither seen nor
touched him, nor yet smelled, tasted, nor heard.
Kinda like I know superman and batboy personally.
I find Jesus based his faith ( his beliefs ) by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
That is why Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written....." meaning already written down recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Although the Bible is Not written in ABC order we can put it in alphabetical order via a comprehensive concordance.
That way we can look up one subject, or one topic at a time and see the internal harmony among the Bible writers.
That internal harmony does make for being a good bedfellow.
We can go to sleep at night knowing despite sufferings that God cares and will send Jesus to step in.
Audie
Veteran Member
Not one speck of that is "reasoning".
It is just repeating what he read. Rephrasing
perhaps. Reasoning, hardly.
IN any case-the statement was that faith and
reason have little in common, are basically
incompatible. And such is the case.
IF, you know one could figure out, reason it
out, prove god, then there is no use for faith!
You dont need faith to get it that two and two is
four.
You do need faith in order to believe there is
a god, for lo, no reason, and no evidence
will lead you to that.
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In Scripture, Jesus is without mistakes as per Hebrews 4:15 B ( without sin )
With mistakes/sin he would have been just like flawed Adam after Adam broke God's law.
( the knowledge of that law protected Adam and Eve from harm providing them with safety )
Jesus, like a sinless Adam also had knowledge of God's Law, however unlike Adam upheld God's law.
Thus, Jesus was like us but without leanings toward / wrongdoing - Hebrews 2:16-17.
That is why Jesus could be a ransom for us - Matthew 20:28.
Kind of like Satan and Adam put us in the Pawn Shop of Death.
So, we need someone from the outside who can pay over the asking price for our release ( from sin and death ).
Sinless Jesus could and did. That opens the way for us for a resurrection for us.- Revelation 1:18.
Audie
Veteran Member
EVEN IF any of that is true,
it STILL completely misses what I said about
"infallible".
IF you or anyone is claiming to know what
Jesus said and meant by it, and it is Truth, then
they are claiming to be infallible.
Jesus did reason on the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining, expounding them for us.
Blind faith ( credulity ) does have little in common with reasons(s).
But, Jesus' faith was based on educated logical reasoning.
Even by age 12 Jesus was well versed in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Since God is invisible we can't visibly prove God, but since the Bible has many enemies (both from within and without) yet No one can get rid of the Bible and its international spreading about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
Also, No one can get rid of Bible people even under ban or in consecration camps, etc.
So, without 'divine backing' there would be No Bible and No Bible people.
There is No other book translated earth wide into as many languages as the Bible.
Bible people translate and distribute Bibles on a grand-international scale today as never before in history.
Just as foretold, so it is (and will be)- Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Audie
Veteran Member
Never mind, whatever you hear, your response is
to chant irrelevant mantras. Sure does not make
me want to be like a Christian.