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Converted because of RF

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This is a question to satisfy my curiosity. Has anyone here converted to another faith primarily because of discussions you're had or read about here on RF. With so much proselytizing going on, I wonder if any of it has been at all successful.

If you don't feel comfortable admitting it, that's fine too.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I have changed my religion and am making an attempt to convert to Judaism, in light largely of conversations I've had on RF and posts I've read from Jews. It's more complex than that, of course, but it wouldn't have happened without RF, I think. It definitely had nothing to do with proselytising though.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Over my 16 years on the Forum, I have converted from a warm, loving optimist about human nature to a bitter, defeated cynic about it. Does that count? :D
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This is a question to satisfy my curiosity. Has anyone here converted to another faith primarily because of discussions you're had or read about here on RF. With so much proselytizing going on, I wonder if any of it has been at all successful.

If you don't feel comfortable admitting it, that's fine too.
Not directly, but certain members here did make the desision to convert a lot more easy for me.
The main person who guidede me in to islam was my GF.
But in the end i was the one made the choice to convert fully.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I have changed my religion and am making an attempt to convert to Judaism, in light largely of conversations I've had on RF and posts I've read from Jews. It's more complex than that, of course, but it wouldn't have happened without RF, I think. It definitely had nothing to do with proselytising though.
That would make sense, as one of the more attractive features of Judaism is that, so far as I am aware, it doesn't proselytise.;)

Which raises an interesting point. Those of us that were raised in proselytising religions, such as Christianity, were always exhorted to go and persuade others. I always felt the best way to do that was probably by NOT trying to persuade, but just by letting one's own religion seem to be an attractive thing, followed by normal people.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No. But it has given me a more insider's view of why people proselytize and reiterated my dislike and bias of abrahamic based traditions. I'm around christians but I rarely talk with any and 99% of them don't bring up christ unless someone "opens the door" for them to do so. Since, by nature of RF, the door is already opened, I can kinda get a snap shot of the, how to say, how people treat each other and the justification of so by their beliefs.

Other than that, no.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
That would make sense, as one of the more attractive features of Judaism is that, so far as I am aware, it doesn't proselytise.;)

Which raises an interesting point. Those of us that were raised in proselytising religions, such as Christianity, were always exhorted to go and persuade others. I always felt the best way to do that was probably by NOT trying to persuade, but just by letting one's own religion seem to be an attractive thing, followed by normal people.
I'm glad I left Christianity as early as I did. I was 21. I felt the preachy need, too, at times.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That would make sense, as one of the more attractive features of Judaism is that, so far as I am aware, it doesn't proselytise.;)

Matthew 23:13-15...
13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in. . . .
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.”


So how do Jesus’ words fit if the Jews did not proselytise? :shrug:
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Which raises an interesting point. Those of us that were raised in proselytising religions, such as Christianity, were always exhorted to go and persuade others. I always felt the best way to do that was probably by NOT trying to persuade, but just by letting one's own religion seem to be an attractive thing, followed by normal people.

There's different schools of thought about that in Christianity though, to be fair, and our church since Vatican II has disowned proselytism "wholesale", theologically.

This is significant given that, as you say above, we both come from a religious tradition which has - unfortunately - been pretty proselytory in its past, to say the least (inasmuch as the church doctrinally opposed only 'forced' baptism and coercion but was heavy on the missionary "let's persuade the whole wide world and every living person to convert to our way of thinking with a huge, boundless assimilation drive using every tool of reason, philosophical analysis, power of attraction and theological argument at our disposal" in a free market of ideas, kind of philosophy. That's now a thing of the past).

This is especially noted in the case of Jews, with a 2015 Vatican document under Pope Francis's pontificate not merely saying "no proselytism" but going further than that even:

Catholics should not try to convert Jews, Vatican says

Vatican tells Catholics not to attempt to convert Jews

The overriding emphasis these days is placed upon the much more tolerant "witness" - we are less to be active persuaders (i.e. salesmen of our religion) but rather to be witnessess of the loving and salvific grace of Christ in how we relate to others. This is the new 'leitmotif', so to speak.

Interfaith dialogue has been embraced by the contemporary Catholic Church with a gusto in the years since the 1965 ecumenical councils that, I think, has surprised many of its critics.

The intellectual climate at the top-brass is such today (60 years on from the council), that Pope Francis actually reprimanded a zealous young African Catholic for enthusiastically displaying the fact that she had converted a Hindu friend:


Conversion is not your mission, Pope Francis tells Catholics in Morocco

Conversion is not your mission, Pope Francis tells Catholics in Morocco Pope Francis told Morocco’s tiny Catholic community on March 31 their role in the predominantly Muslim country was not to covert their neighbours but live in brotherhood with all other faiths.


Pope Francis says he felt ‘bitterness’ when introduced to Catholic converts in Africa


In a question-and-answer session with Jesuits in Mozambique, Pope Francis underscored his dislike of “proselytization” by condemning the actions of a Catholic woman he had met that day.

The Argentinian pontiff’s September 5 remarks were published yesterday in the Holy See’s news website Vatican News.

“Today I felt a certain bitterness after a meeting with young people,” Pope Francis told the assembled Jesuits.

“A woman approached me with a young man and a young woman. I was told they were part of a slightly fundamentalist movement,” he continued.

“She said to me in perfect Spanish: ‘Your Holiness, I am from South Africa. This boy was a Hindu and converted to Catholicism. This girl was Anglican and converted to Catholicism.’ But she told me in a triumphant way, as though she was showing off a hunting trophy. I felt uncomfortable.

“Proselytism is incapable of creating a religious path in freedom,” he said. “Proselytizing is convincing, but it is all about membership and takes your freedom away.”


(continued...)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
And our post-Vatican II attitude has 'born fruit', especially in recent years in dialogue with the Jewish community i.e. in 2017 this landmark document was published by orthodox rabbis:


https://www.thejc.com/news/world/ra...h-official-response-to-nostra-aetate-1.443679


Eight of the world’s leading Orthodox rabbis had a special audience with Pope Francis last week in the Vatican at which they presented the first official response from the Jewish world to Nostra Aetate, the 1965 pronouncement by the Catholic church on its major change in attitude towards Jews.

The chief rabbi of Moscow, Pinchas Goldschmidt, who led the rabbinical delegation to Pope Francis in his role as president of the Council of European Rabbis (CER), said that it had been decided to mark the more than 50 years since Nostra Aetate with an official declaration “which represents 90 per cent of the Orthodox Jewish world". Rabbi Goldschmidt added: "It is the first time there has been an official response.”

Rabbi Goldschmidt said: “Initially there was great scepticism about the change in attitude by the Catholic Church. But we have come to see that the changes were indeed profound, and today we see the church as partners and allies in the challenges which the Jewish people face.”


The text from the Conference of European Rabbis, the Rabbinical Council of America, and the Commission of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel stated:


Between Jerusalem and Rome


Fifty years ago, twenty years after the Shoah, with its declaration Nostra Aetate (No. 4),6 the Catholic Church began a process of introspection that increasingly led to any hostility toward Jews being expurgated from Church doctrine, enabling trust and confidence to grow between our respective faith communities.

In this regard, Pope John XXIII was a transformative figure in Jewish-Catholic relations no less than in the history of the Church itself. He played a courageous role in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust, and it was his recognition of the need to revise “the teaching of contempt” that helped overcome resistance to change and ultimately facilitated the adoption of Nostra Aetate (no. 4).

In its most focused, concrete, and, for the Church, most dramatic7 assertion, Nostra Aetate recognized that any Jew who was not directly and personally involved in the Crucifixion did not bear any responsibility for it.8 Pope Benedict XVI’s elaborations and explications of this theme are particularly noteworthy.9

In addition, basing itself on Christian Scriptures, Nostra Aetate asserted that the Divine election of Israel, which it calls “the gift of God,” will not be revoked, stating, “God … does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues.” It issued the injunction that “the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God.” Later, in 2013, Pope Francis elaborated upon this theme in his apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium: “God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with His word.”10

Nostra Aetate also paved the way for the Vatican’s 1993 establishment of full diplomatic relations with the State of Israel. Through the establishment of this relationship, the Catholic Church showed how it had truly repudiated its portrayal of the Jewish people as a nation condemned to wander until the final advent. This historic moment facilitated Pope John Paul II’s pilgrimage to Israel in 2000, which served as another powerful demonstration of a new era in Catholic-Jewish relations. Since then, the last two popes have also made similar state visits.

Nostra Aetate strongly “decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone” as a matter of religious duty. Accordingly, Pope John Paul II repeatedly affirmed that anti-Semitism is “a sin against God and humanity.” At the Western Wall in Jerusalem, he recited the following prayer: “God of our fathers, You chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your Name to the Nations. We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

Pope Francis recently recognized a new, pervasive and even fashionable form of anti-Semitism, when he told a World Jewish Congress delegation: “To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism. There may be political disagreements between governments and on political issues, but the State of Israel has every right to exist in safety and prosperity.”11

Finally, Nostra Aetate called for fostering “mutual understanding and respect,” and for conducting “fraternal dialogues.” In 1974, Pope Paul VI heeded this call by creating the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews; the Jewish community, in response to this call, has met regularly with Church representatives.

Initially, many Jewish leaders14 were skeptical of the sincerity of the Church’s overtures to the Jewish community, due to the long history of Christian anti-Judaism. Over time, it has become clear that the transformations in the Church’s attitudes and teachings are not only sincere but also increasingly profound, and that we are entering an era of growing tolerance, mutual respect, and solidarity between members of our respective faiths.

We acknowledge that this fraternity cannot sweep away our doctrinal differences; it does, rather, reinforce genuine mutual positive dispositions towards fundamental values that we share, including but not limited to reverence for the Hebrew Bible...The doctrinal differences are essential and cannot be debated or negotiated; their meaning and importance belong to the internal deliberations of the respective faith communities...

However, doctrinal differences do not and may not stand in the way of our peaceful collaboration for the betterment of our shared world and the lives of the children of Noah. To further this end, it is crucial that our faith communities continue to encounter and grow acquainted with one another, and earn each other’s trust.

Despite the irreconcilable theological differences, we Jews view Catholics as our partners, close allies, friends and brothers in our mutual quest for a better world blessed with peace, social justice and security.19

We understand our mission to be a light unto the nations, which obliges us to contribute to humanity’s appreciation for holiness, morality and piety. As the Western world grows more and more secular, it abandons many of the moral values shared by Jews and Christians...We therefore seek the partnership of the Catholic community in particular, and other faith communities in general, to assure the future of religious freedom, to foster the moral principles of our faiths...

Despite profound theological differences, Catholics and Jews share common beliefs in the Divine origin of the Torah and in the idea of an ultimate redemption, and now, also, in the affirmation that religions must use moral behavior and religious education — not war, coercion, or social pressure — to influence and inspire.


This would have been unthinkable a century ago and I think demonstrates how much 'trust' we Catholics have built up in dispelling the demons of our once proselytizing ways (i.e. we are sincerely repentant!)

So, to be fair, I think our church has done pretty much all it can to 'change' in that respect - and since more than half of the world's Christians are Catholics (1.3 billion), we represent the majority of Christendom.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Over my 16 years on the Forum, I have converted from a warm, loving optimist about human nature to bitter, defeated cynicism about it. Does that count? :D
Were you a liar 16 years ago, or is that an added bonus from the change in your ways?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
And our post-Vatican II attitude has 'born fruit', especially in recent years in dialogue with the Jewish community i.e. in 2017 this landmark document was published by orthodox rabbis:


https://www.thejc.com/news/world/ra...h-official-response-to-nostra-aetate-1.443679


Eight of the world’s leading Orthodox rabbis had a special audience with Pope Francis last week in the Vatican at which they presented the first official response from the Jewish world to Nostra Aetate, the 1965 pronouncement by the Catholic church on its major change in attitude towards Jews.

The chief rabbi of Moscow, Pinchas Goldschmidt, who led the rabbinical delegation to Pope Francis in his role as president of the Council of European Rabbis (CER), said that it had been decided to mark the more than 50 years since Nostra Aetate with an official declaration “which represents 90 per cent of the Orthodox Jewish world". Rabbi Goldschmidt added: "It is the first time there has been an official response.”

Rabbi Goldschmidt said: “Initially there was great scepticism about the change in attitude by the Catholic Church. But we have come to see that the changes were indeed profound, and today we see the church as partners and allies in the challenges which the Jewish people face.”


The text from the Conference of European Rabbis, the Rabbinical Council of America, and the Commission of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel stated:


Between Jerusalem and Rome


Fifty years ago, twenty years after the Shoah, with its declaration Nostra Aetate (No. 4),6 the Catholic Church began a process of introspection that increasingly led to any hostility toward Jews being expurgated from Church doctrine, enabling trust and confidence to grow between our respective faith communities.

In this regard, Pope John XXIII was a transformative figure in Jewish-Catholic relations no less than in the history of the Church itself. He played a courageous role in rescuing Jews during the Holocaust, and it was his recognition of the need to revise “the teaching of contempt” that helped overcome resistance to change and ultimately facilitated the adoption of Nostra Aetate (no. 4).

In its most focused, concrete, and, for the Church, most dramatic7 assertion, Nostra Aetate recognized that any Jew who was not directly and personally involved in the Crucifixion did not bear any responsibility for it.8 Pope Benedict XVI’s elaborations and explications of this theme are particularly noteworthy.9

In addition, basing itself on Christian Scriptures, Nostra Aetate asserted that the Divine election of Israel, which it calls “the gift of God,” will not be revoked, stating, “God … does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues.” It issued the injunction that “the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God.” Later, in 2013, Pope Francis elaborated upon this theme in his apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium: “God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with His word.”10

Nostra Aetate also paved the way for the Vatican’s 1993 establishment of full diplomatic relations with the State of Israel. Through the establishment of this relationship, the Catholic Church showed how it had truly repudiated its portrayal of the Jewish people as a nation condemned to wander until the final advent. This historic moment facilitated Pope John Paul II’s pilgrimage to Israel in 2000, which served as another powerful demonstration of a new era in Catholic-Jewish relations. Since then, the last two popes have also made similar state visits.

Nostra Aetate strongly “decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone” as a matter of religious duty. Accordingly, Pope John Paul II repeatedly affirmed that anti-Semitism is “a sin against God and humanity.” At the Western Wall in Jerusalem, he recited the following prayer: “God of our fathers, You chose Abraham and his descendants to bring your Name to the Nations. We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant.”

Pope Francis recently recognized a new, pervasive and even fashionable form of anti-Semitism, when he told a World Jewish Congress delegation: “To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism. There may be political disagreements between governments and on political issues, but the State of Israel has every right to exist in safety and prosperity.”11

Finally, Nostra Aetate called for fostering “mutual understanding and respect,” and for conducting “fraternal dialogues.” In 1974, Pope Paul VI heeded this call by creating the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews; the Jewish community, in response to this call, has met regularly with Church representatives.

Initially, many Jewish leaders14 were skeptical of the sincerity of the Church’s overtures to the Jewish community, due to the long history of Christian anti-Judaism. Over time, it has become clear that the transformations in the Church’s attitudes and teachings are not only sincere but also increasingly profound, and that we are entering an era of growing tolerance, mutual respect, and solidarity between members of our respective faiths.

We acknowledge that this fraternity cannot sweep away our doctrinal differences; it does, rather, reinforce genuine mutual positive dispositions towards fundamental values that we share, including but not limited to reverence for the Hebrew Bible...The doctrinal differences are essential and cannot be debated or negotiated; their meaning and importance belong to the internal deliberations of the respective faith communities...

However, doctrinal differences do not and may not stand in the way of our peaceful collaboration for the betterment of our shared world and the lives of the children of Noah. To further this end, it is crucial that our faith communities continue to encounter and grow acquainted with one another, and earn each other’s trust.

Despite the irreconcilable theological differences, we Jews view Catholics as our partners, close allies, friends and brothers in our mutual quest for a better world blessed with peace, social justice and security.19

We understand our mission to be a light unto the nations, which obliges us to contribute to humanity’s appreciation for holiness, morality and piety. As the Western world grows more and more secular, it abandons many of the moral values shared by Jews and Christians...We therefore seek the partnership of the Catholic community in particular, and other faith communities in general, to assure the future of religious freedom, to foster the moral principles of our faiths...

Despite profound theological differences, Catholics and Jews share common beliefs in the Divine origin of the Torah and in the idea of an ultimate redemption, and now, also, in the affirmation that religions must use moral behavior and religious education — not war, coercion, or social pressure — to influence and inspire.


This would have been unthinkable a century ago and I think demonstrates how much 'trust' we Catholics have built up in dispelling the demons of our once proselytizing ways (i.e. we are sincerely repentant!)

So, to be fair, I think our church has done pretty much all it can to 'change' in that respect - and since more than half of the world's Christians are Catholics (1.3 billion), we represent the majority of Christendom.
As so often, you are a mine of information.

I'm pleased to see that what looks like sense and basic good-neighbourliness is now the order of the day.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Has anyone here converted to another faith primarily because of discussions you're had or read about here on RF.
Nope, once a Baha'i, always a Baha'i, for 50 years now.

The only other religion I ever considered was atheism, but I did not think God would be too keen on that. ;)
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a question to satisfy my curiosity. Has anyone here converted to another faith primarily because of discussions you're had or read about here on RF. With so much proselytizing going on, I wonder if any of it has been at all successful.

If you don't feel comfortable admitting it, that's fine too.
I've switched religions a dozen times in my life, but not because of RF.

They told me this time with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that it wasn't a revolving door.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Over my 16 years on the Forum, I have converted from a warm, loving optimist about human nature to bitter, defeated cynicism about it. Does that count?

Clearly the vaccine that RF offers against certain illnesses by exposing us to small doses did not work for you.

I always felt the best way to do that was probably by NOT trying to persuade, but just by letting one's own religion seem to be an attractive thing, followed by normal people.

Words are cheap. Hypocrites and fakes use wonderful words but there is nothing but darkness behind those words.

What impresses me is deeds.

This says it all to me (long hair and ashes being marks of renunciants in India)
"Having long hair and ash-smeared bodies,
there are many frauds in variegated guises.
Tukaram says, 'Let their dead conscience be burnt;
it is no sin to thrash them!' "
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Over my 16 years on the Forum,

That's quite a feat, sixteen years is more than half my life - to think, I was only 12 and didn't know practically anything about Catholic theology or mysticism when you first joined this forum :eek:
 
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