Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[Nepenthe]

The Nenderthals never gave nothing to base it on, the assertations are that easy and simple to make. The era offered nothing besides instinctual existence, slightly above animals, and that only because they had hands mostly. Everything associated with the humans during that period, anything that can be considered " Set apart from animals" , that they accomplished, was only because they had hands. There is no advancement that we could attribute to brains or intelligence. Why was that?

Because they had no consciousness.

Peace.

Neandertals left evidence of an extensive Mousterian culture including projectile weapons with racloir tools, flint axes and spear heads. Neanderthals controlled fire, built complex shelters, and used traps; they were just as intelligent as modern Homo sapiens sapiens.

 

[MSizer]

Neandertals left evidence of an extensive Mousterian culture including projectile weapons with racloir tools, flint axes and spear heads. Neanderthals controlled fire, built complex shelters, and used traps; they were just as intelligent as modern Homo sapiens sapiens.

Well, Nepenthe, you're not factoring in the fact that the flood probably mixed those tools and other artifacts in with the remains of neanderthals. It's just as probable that they were human tools, but they just got mixed in with neanderthal bones 8^)

 

[Baydwin]

Neandertals left evidence of an extensive Mousterian culture including projectile weapons with racloir tools, flint axes and spear heads. Neanderthals controlled fire, built complex shelters, and used traps; they were just as intelligent as modern Homo sapiens sapiens.

I don't know about that last bit. They had bigger brains but unlike cromagnon man they never invented the throwing spear, only the stabbing spear, which might suggest a lack of abstract thought on the neanderthals part. But, it's hard to know without soft tissues.

 

[mickiel]

I repeat, modern humans lived alongside neanderthals, give me examples of their government.

Modern humans have never lived alongside Neanderthals.

Peace.

 

[Sunstone]

Modern humans have never lived alongside Neanderthals.

Peace.

On the face of it, that sounds very much like an ignorant comment. But I'm willing to believe you mean more than it would seem you mean on the face of it. So what do you mean by "modern humans have never lived alongside Neanderthals"?

 

[mickiel]

We cannot have an intelligent discussion of this subject till we agree on terms. Obviously we're using completely different definitions of 'government' so it's no wonder we're talking past each other.
Mickiel, you brought government into the discussion. Give us a definition, if you would, so we can all proceed on an equal footing.

Government is the excercise of political Authority, the administration of public affiars. Judical powers are vested and excercised. It is the overning body of a nation, state or community. Cavemen had none of this in any form.

Peace.

 

[Breathe]

Um.

Neanderthals did have language. It was higher pitched and nasal, as has been explained.
Neanderthals speak out after 30,000 years - life - 15 April 2008 - New Scientist

They did have consciousness, they built tools and controlled fire, and they buried their dead in a ritualistic manner, including burying them with grave goods.


More than likely, a Neanderthal's government would have been, like ancient human tribes (and still in the case of some smaller tribes around the world today), similar to the father of the village/elder/shaman has the final say.

 

[ericoh2]

Government is the excercise of political Authority, the administration of public affiars. Judical powers are vested and excercised. It is the overning body of a nation, state or community. Cavemen had none of this in any form.

Peace.

What made you decide that this criteria had to be met in order for something to be conscious? I think it would be best to refer back to a previous poster who asked you define "conscious," because I don't see where you get the idea that unless a species meets your opinion of what a government is (in this case a very intellectually developed government), it is not conscious.

 

[mickiel]

On the face of it, that sounds very much like an ignorant comment. But I'm willing to believe you mean more than it would seem you mean on the face of it. So what do you mean by "modern humans have never lived alongside Neanderthals"?

Come on man, I can't believe I am being asked this. All Neanderthal characteristics dissappeared 50,000 years ago. They never walked with modernday humans, and we are not Neanderthals ourselves, they were a sub species of human with no Consciousness.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Um.

Neanderthals did have language. It was higher pitched and nasal, as has been explained.
Neanderthals speak out after 30,000 years - life - 15 April 2008 - New Scientist

They did have consciousness, they built tools and controlled fire, and they buried their dead in a ritualistic manner, including burying them with grave goods.


More than likely, a Neanderthal's government would have been, like ancient human tribes (and still in the case of some smaller tribes around the world today), similar to the father of the village/elder/shaman has the final say.

Building tools and controlling fire, or burying your dead, none of those are signs of Consciousness.

Peace.

 

[Breathe]

Building tools and controlling fire, or burying your dead, none of those are signs of Consciousness.

Peace.

But they are signs of abstract thinking, which shows consciousness.

 

[Sunstone]

Come on man, I can't believe I am being asked this. All Neanderthal characteristics dissappeared 50,000 years ago. They never walked with modernday humans, and we are not Neanderthals ourselves, they were a sub species of human with no Consciousness.

Peace.

You had best re-check your sources, Mickiel. Neanderthal and modern man overlapped in Europe for a few thousand years.

 

[Amill]

The Nenderthals never gave nothing to base it on, the assertations are that easy and simple to make. The era offered nothing besides instinctual existence, slightly above animals, and that only because they had hands mostly. Everything associated with the humans during that period, anything that can be considered " Set apart from animals" , that they accomplished, was only because they had hands. There is no advancement that we could attribute to brains or intelligence. Why was that?

Building tools and controlling fire, or burying your dead, none of those are signs of Consciousness.

Peace.

We're still waiting on you to define consciousness, and I really hope you realize that at one time homo sapiens and neanderthals existed during the same time period. I also have a question. If a tribe of humans today are living similarly to tribes of humans thousands of years ago, are they not conscious either?

 

[freethinker44]

Government is the excercise of political Authority, the administration of public affiars. Judical powers are vested and excercised. It is the overning body of a nation, state or community. Cavemen had none of this in any form.

Peace.

By this definition, most societies before ancient greece or rome had no government.

 

[freethinker44]

Come on man, I can't believe I am being asked this. All Neanderthal characteristics dissappeared 50,000 years ago. They never walked with modernday humans, and we are not Neanderthals ourselves, they were a sub species of human with no Consciousness.

Peace.

Neandertals disappeared about 30,000 years ago and there is some evidence that suggests they were still here 24,000 years ago. Either way, 50,000 or 24,000 years ago, it doesn't matter to this discussion because homo sapiens existed 300,000 years ago giving at least 250,000 years of coexistence.

 

[mickiel]

We're still waiting on you to define consciousness, and I really hope you realize that at one time homo sapiens and neanderthals existed during the same time period. I also have a question. If a tribe of humans today are living similarly to tribes of humans thousands of years ago, are they not conscious either?

I think every human since Adam has been conscious, and I think thats when civilization began. Thats where I track its beginning.

Now let me define Consciousness in short order. You and I reconize each others consciousness, so " Seeing the Consciousness of Others", our personal Identification with other living things, is a sign of Consciousness. When we can imagine what they " Are Thinking", and feel sympathy for it. And then " Remember it from then on , that is consciousness. Animals and cavemen have " Synaptic nervous systems, that does not allow this, only instinct and reaction. Instinct and reaction can build tools and bury the dead, but they will never " Remember the dead again." This is why I disagree that Consciousness can evolve by biological selection. There is no memory in biological selection.

The Intellectual ability of civilizied man is his Consciousness, his culture, history( memory) even religion and science are signs of Consciousness. Animals have no science, no religion, no language, no imagination, no thinking about what the other is thinkling about, all this is consciousness. Consciousness is more than human evolution from mere chance, matter and survival. Something must be " Added from the outside" in order for something as different as Consciousness to occur, of course I believe that added ingredient comes from God.

For further example; Mans consciousness couldnot have possibly developed by means of the same laws which have determined the progressive development of the organic world in general, mans simple physical organism is vastly differing.

Consciousness is not important in animals or cavemen, they didnot need it to survive.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

But they are signs of abstract thinking, which shows consciousness.

Well I disagree that abstract thinking is consciousness. In Abstract thinking there is never a complette understanding in what you are doing. Its more instinct than anythingelse. Conscious people can think Abstract, but unconscious beings, animals, cavemen, can only think abstract.

Peace.

 

[Breathe]

Animals have no science,

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 'Neanderthal tools' found at dig
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 'Complexity' of Neanderthal tools

no religion,

http://www.scilogs.eu/en/blog/biolo...nderthals-religion-evolved-at-least-two-times

no language,

Neanderthals speak out after 30,000 years - life - 15 April 2008 - New Scientist

no imagination,

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Neanderthal 'face' found in Loire

no thinking about what the other is thinkling about, all this is consciousness.

CJO - Abstract - Some Observations on &#8216;The Neanderthals: a Social Synthesis&#8217; <em>with a response from</em> Davies & Underdown

Hope this helps

 

[Breathe]

Well I disagree that abstract thinking is consciousness. In Abstract thinking there is never a complette understanding in what you are doing. Its more instinct than anythingelse.

Well, please define what consciousness is, because it seems to be rather elusive here.

Conscious people can think Abstract, but unconscious beings, animals, cavemen, can only think abstract.

I don't follow, what do you mean?

 

[mickiel]

Neandertals disappeared about 30,000 years ago and there is some evidence that suggests they were still here 24,000 years ago. Either way, 50,000 or 24,000 years ago, it doesn't matter to this discussion because homo sapiens existed 300,000 years ago giving at least 250,000 years of coexistence.

Well I certainly disagree with this, the term " Homo sapien" basically means " Modern Man", to claim Modern man existed in Ancient times is contridiction in my view.

Peace.