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Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by mickiel, Nov 28, 2009.

  1. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    I have often been accused of not debating, which I disagree with. But I will make a " Conscious effort" to dispute that accusation in this thread. I am interested in Ancient history, and the bible is part of that in my view. I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old or that Adam was the first human created. Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

    If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathmatics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

    Peace.
     
  2. monta

    monta .

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    Hmm I would say it was a rhetorical question, but there is no question so I guess it's just rhetoric. Do we have to tease the debate out of you or what is the plan?
     
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  3. Baydwin

    Baydwin Well-Known Member

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    Cromagnon were essentially modern humans, they wouldn't have been any different from you or I.

    There is no evidence that Neanderthals could not speak, they also built tools such as spears, lived in family groups, would have worn clothing etc. They were as conscious as you are.
     
  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    We are Cro-magnons, mickiel, so that distinction is moot.

    As for "None of these things began with them" well, that's just wrong. Where did you get that idea? Cave men spoke, and they had the equivalent of government, ie: propriety, norms, right and wrong, &c within their bands.

    People rarely develop things when there's no advantage to be gained. Note that many modern "stone-age" cultures are well known to Anthropology, and all have the same brains and consciousnesses as we have. You see this even in civilizations like classical Greece or Rome, whose citizens I suspect you'd aknowledge were mentally indistinguishable from ourselves. They never developed a machine technology. They didn't need to -- they had slaves. Mechanical devices were occasionally developed by individuals, but they never went anywhere. Society didn't need them.

    I assume you didn't read the article on Neandertals in Scientific American a couple months ago. Check it out. It's interesting.
     
    #4 Valjean, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2009
  5. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    There is absolutely no evidence that they could speak verbal languages either. None! I disagree that they were as conscious as we are. I think they could make sounds, but any culture that had verbal language, developed some kind of social civilization or tribal structure and left definte signs of it. Neanderthal didnot.

    Peace.
     
  6. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    I have seen no evidence that they had the equivalent of government, absolutely no signs of government have ever been found during their times, none.. Propriety, norms, right and wrong are not signs of Government.

    Peace.
     
  7. Baydwin

    Baydwin Well-Known Member

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    According to the analysis done on Neanderthal skeletons, they would have been able to speak, but their voices would have been high pitched and they might not have been able to articulate as well as we can.
     
  8. Baydwin

    Baydwin Well-Known Member

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    Can you find some evidence of modern hominid government from the same time period please?
     
  9. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    There is none, your request is contridiction within itself. How can modern government exist in ancient times?

    Peace.
     
  10. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    Well thats close to the truth, their vocal chords were intact, but their Consciousness was not. Everything physically was there for them to be civilized, yet they were not. Why? The only logical reasonable conclusion that I can reason out, is their consciousness, something was wrong with it, something missing that muted them.

    Peace.
     
  11. Baydwin

    Baydwin Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't asking for modern government, I was asking for government in modern humans of the time period, and yes they did exist as seyorni and I have already pointed out.

    Your assertions that neanderthals lacked society and thus consciousness are based on nothing.
     
  12. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What do you mean by "government?' "Stone age" cultures like American Indians, Australian aborigines, Amazon forest tribes, New Guinea or Polynesian tribes, &c do not have formal, written, codified legal systems, to be sure, but they do have the cultural equivalent. They do have cultural rules, right and wrong, propriety, social rules and systems for addressing infractions thereof.

    Language? News Flash: The Neanderthal genome's been deciphered -- and they have the same, FoxP2 'language' gene we modern Cro-Magnons do -- identical.
     
  13. mickiel

    mickiel Well-Known Member

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    The Nenderthals never gave nothing to base it on, the assertations are that easy and simple to make. The era offered nothing besides instinctual existence, slightly above animals, and that only because they had hands mostly. Everything associated with the humans during that period, anything that can be considered " Set apart from animals" , that they accomplished, was only because they had hands. There is no advancement that we could attribute to brains or intelligence. Why was that?

    Because they had no consciousness.

    Peace.
     
  14. Baydwin

    Baydwin Well-Known Member

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    I repeat, modern humans lived alongside neanderthals, give me examples of their government.
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    You ignore the facts, mickiel. Lack of "advancement" is not evidence of lack of consciousness. There are many, many modern stone age cultures that have been extensively studied by ethnographers; cultures that have not "advanced" at all, and every one of these cave men is just as conscious as you or me. Cultural stability is not evidence of lack of consciousness.
     
  16. freethinker44

    freethinker44 Well-Known Member

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    Forms of government are found within almost all animals today. Most notable and probably the most obvious animal governments would be in elephants. They have a matriarcal society, moral system, and even mourn their dead. Other forms of government are visible in wolf packs, gorilla harems, ant hills, bee hives and so forth. I wouldn't really list a government as a need for consciousness, every species needs a government system for survival.
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    We cannot have an intelligent discussion of this subject till we agree on terms. Obviously we're using completely different definitions of 'government' so it's no wonder we're talking past each other.
    Mickiel, you brought government into the discussion. Give us a definition, if you would, so we can all proceed on an equal footing.
     
  18. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Mickiel, please explain to me why dental tools, axes, arrows and clothing are found buried with neanderthals if they were unconcious. Furthermore, you don't even know what conciousness is, because if you ask any single expert in theory of mind or brain science, they will tell you that even bees are concious. I find it hard to imaging that bees are concious but neanderthals, makers of tools and clothes were not. Don't things that are designed need a designer? Mustn't one be concious to design anything? I do believe so.
     
  19. Amill

    Amill Apikoros

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    You can't even provide an answer to what consciousness is. All you have done is explain how the rise to modern civilization needed conscious humans. Knowing the definition of consciousness, I'd quite agree, but you don't use normal definitions.

    What is consciousness? Tell us what it IS, not what it's needed for. Neanderthals also buried their dead, was that part of their "instinctual" :facepalm:consciousness? Give me a break.
     
    #19 Amill, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
  20. MSizer

    MSizer MSizer

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    Exactly. Kristoff Koch, the most highly regarded researcher on conciouness today, said that we don't even know what are the minimum neurological components necessary for conciousness. He says that we don't have any way of knowing (yet anyway) exactly which beings and which aren't for sure. We can only make educated guesses. Your apparent opinion of conciousness mickiel doesn't even match the simple "awareness" or subjectivity most people assume to be the essence of conciousness.
     
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