Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[monta]

Well I certainly disagree with this, the term " Homo sapien" basically means " Modern Man", to claim Modern man existed in Ancient times is contridiction in my view.

Peace.

Homosapiens means wise man, and whether all modern men are wise has yet to be demonstrated.

 

[mickiel]

Well, please define what consciousness is, because it seems to be rather elusive here.quote

Refer to post #36.


I don't follow, what do you mean?

We consciously know what we are doing. We plan things, we think about what we have planned. We get Ideals and act on them, we respect the ideals of others, that is not abstract thinking, its controlled thinking with purpose, with past, with present and with future intent. Cavemen and animals cannot do this.

Peace.

 

[Breathe]

Cavemen and animals cannot do this.

Do you have any proof of this?

Evidence says contrary.

 

[freethinker44]

Well I certainly disagree with this, the term " Homo sapien" basically means " Modern Man", to claim Modern man existed in Ancient times is contridiction in my view.

Peace.

It is what it is. The oldest fossils from humans as we exist today is 200,000 years old. Whatever debates rage within any biological or anthropological cirles, one thing that is not debated is whether or not modern humans existed along side neandertals, it is common knowledge that they existed together, the only debate is why they died out and we survived.

 

[Valjean]

Come on man, I can't believe I am being asked this. All Neanderthal characteristics dissappeared 50,000 years ago. They never walked with modernday humans, and we are not Neanderthals ourselves, they were a sub species of human with no Consciousness.

Peace.

That's just not true, mickiel. Again, where are you getting this info? Modern humans were in Europe, with Neandertals, as much as 40,000 years ago. The most recent Neandertals found so far is the Gibralter population of about 24,000 years ago. That's a lot of overlap.

 

[mickiel]

Do you have any proof of this?

Evidence says contrary.

Every animal I have ever had is proof, I observed them for myself. Now the proof of Cavemen is subjective, but I see no other explination possible. They did not develop civilization after being alive thousands of years. If they were, like we are, then civilization should have started 60,000 -100,000 years ago. It didnot. There has to be a reason Neandethal and Cromagnon were so stagnant. I reason it was their minds, something was missing in their minds.

The Vagueness of early man shows something. When man received consciousness, he was then rational, and that produced civilization almost instantly. Odion, reason and logic brought about civilization almost instantly. How can humans live 50,000 years, and never progress from simple tool making and hunting? Never develop a language, never develop science, never build simple statues, never build a city, never get beyond wearing animal skins?

It makes no sense to me, unless they had no consciousness. I mean they had brains, but I don't think active Consciousness.

Peace.

Peace.

 

[Valjean]

Government is the excercise of political Authority, the administration of public affiars. Judical powers are vested and excercised. It is the overning body of a nation, state or community. Cavemen had none of this in any form.

Peace.

Neither did most of humanity till three or four thousand years ago, and neither do many tribal people today. Are you saying that Consciousness developed only a few thousand years ago, and is confined only to those people who've organized themselves into civilizations?

 

[mickiel]

It is what it is. The oldest fossils from humans as we exist today is 200,000 years old. Whatever debates rage within any biological or anthropological cirles, one thing that is not debated is whether or not modern humans existed along side neandertals, it is common knowledge that they existed together, the only debate is why they died out and we survived.

I agree.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

That's just not true, mickiel. Again, where are you getting this info? Modern humans were in Europe, with Neandertals, as much as 40,000 years ago. The most recent Neandertals found so far is the Gibralter population of about 24,000 years ago. That's a lot of overlap.

I don't believe any of this, most of my sources on this is the internet, and my own views.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Neither did most of humanity till three or four thousand years ago, and neither do many tribal people today. Are you saying that Consciousness developed only a few thousand years ago, and is confined only to those people who've organized themselves into civilizations?

Thats exactly what I am saying. I believe civilization started over 2,000 years ago with Adam, whom God gave consciousness. I believe all humans since Adam, tribal peoples included, have had Consciousness.

Peace.

 

[freethinker44]

When man received consciousness, he was then rational, and that produced civilization almost instantly.

Modern man existed for hunderds of thousands of years without civilization. Our history is extremely short compared with our actual time spent on earth.

How can humans live 50,000 years, and never progress from simple tool making and hunting? Never develop a language, never develop science, never build simple statues, never build a city, never get beyond wearing animal skins?

Your guess is as good as mine, but it happened. Humans existed for 300,000 years without any progress at all, depending on what your definition of progress is.

 

[freethinker44]

Thats exactly what I am saying. I believe civilization started over 2,000 years ago with Adam, whom God gave consciousness. I believe all humans since Adam, tribal peoples included, have had Consciousness.

Peace.

This is contradictory to both science and the bible.

 

[Valjean]

We consciously know what we are doing. We plan things, we think about what we have planned. We get Ideals and act on them, we respect the ideals of others, that is not abstract thinking, its controlled thinking with purpose, with past, with present and with future intent. Cavemen and animals cannot do this.

Peace.

Mickiel, you have a computer, do some research on ethology (science of animal behavior) before you make uninformed statements like this. These traits are not unknown in animals. The differences between us and them is more one of degree than presence or absence.
While you're googling you might do some googling on human evolution and neandertals.

Why do you believe American Indians are not conscious?

 

[Valjean]

Thats exactly what I am saying. I believe civilization started over 2,000 years ago with Adam, whom God gave consciousness. I believe all humans since Adam, tribal peoples included, have had Consciousness.

Peace.

But the tribal people are cave men -- they live stone age lifestyles with stone age technology -- yet they're just a conscious as you are.

I suspect you have a fixed, religious doctrine in your head and are trying very hard to cobble together facts to support it, probably with the aid of religious websites.
Am I right?

 

[Amill]

Thats exactly what I am saying. I believe civilization started over 2,000 years ago with Adam, whom God gave consciousness. I believe all humans since Adam, tribal peoples included, have had Consciousness.

Peace.

So there were already homo sapiens existing, and then God decided to give consciousness to one of them, and somehow we're all descendants of that one human?

 

[mickiel]

But the tribal people are cave men -- they live stone age lifestyles with stone age technology -- yet they're just a conscious as you are.

I suspect you have a fixed, religious doctrine in your head and are trying very hard to cobble together facts to support it, probably with the aid of religious websites.
Am I right?

No, I have nothing to do with religious websites, other than a few who still have articles I wrote 15 years ago that I gave them permission to post on their sites.

Peace.

 

[Valjean]

I don't believe any of this, most of my sources on this is the internet, and my own views.

Peace.

Check wikipedia. Google 'Neandertals,' google 'human evolution,' google 'anthropology, read the Scientific American article I referred to previously. There was series just last week on PBS about human origins, I'm sure you could watch it online with a little searching. Pay particular attention to the final program on Neandertals and modern humans.

 

[mickiel]

So there were already homo sapiens existing, and then God decided to give consciousness to one of them, and somehow we're all descendants of that one human?

No. I believe God created cavemen with no consciousness, as well as prehistoric animals, he killed them both off , in my view. Why, I have little Ideal. Then he created Adam and Eve, and I believe we all are decendants from them.

Peace.

 

[monta]

No. I believe God created cavemen with no consciousness, as well as prehistoric animals, he killed them both off , in my view. Why, I have little Ideal. Then he created Adam and Eve, and I believe we all are decendants from them.

Peace.

So the bible is like a metaphor for evolution ?

 

[Breathe]

They did not develop civilization after being alive thousands of years. If they were, like we are, then civilization should have started 60,000 -100,000 years ago.

Perhaps it could be the fact that many tribes lived in small communities, usually of about 25, and spread over many miles due to lack of food, and thus they did not develop new ideas through discussion, and new ideas and developments would not have been able to travel around and get expanded upon.