Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[Sunstone]

I don't believe any of this, most of my sources on this is the internet, and my own views.

Peace.

So the way you date the arrival of modern man in Europe is via "your own views"? How can you be serious? This is a joke, right?

 

[Nepenthe]

Well, Nepenthe, you're not factoring in the fact that the flood probably mixed those tools and other artifacts in with the remains of neanderthals. It's just as probable that they were human tools, but they just got mixed in with neanderthal bones 8^)

I almost forgot I was in a Mickiel thread!

I don't know about that last bit. They had bigger brains but unlike cromagnon man they never invented the throwing spear, only the stabbing spear, which might suggest a lack of abstract thought on the neanderthals part. But, it's hard to know without soft tissues.

Of course we don't have soft tissue available (particularly the frontal lobe) and any evidence on intelligence derived from the archeological information will be inferred. And yes, the Neanderthal brain size was likely due to their being more robust than Homo sapiens. But stone tools used by early humans coexisting with neanderthals were no more sophisticated; in fact, some studies have argued that the stone flakes produced by neanderthals were more sophisticated and efficient than those used by Homo sapiens.
New Evidence Debunks 'Stupid' Neanderthal Myth

Neanderthals did use throwing spears, just not as efficiently as Homo sapiens; their range was short. There's a fascinating study done on the Neanderthal's short squat body and shoulder joint placement which prevented them from inventing, much less utilizing, projectile weapons to their fullest.
Neanderthal Lacked Anatomical Competitive Edge: Skeletal Remains Tell the Story - Physorg | Eureka! Science News

So I suspect intelligence wasn't a barrier here. The Neanderthals were skilled hunters with a wide variety of stone technologies available; they used bitumen as glue to haft stone blades onto wooden handles, and may have been slightly better at hunting large and small game than Homo sapiens.
But the evidence is still tentative and may always be up in the air. I may be too emotionally attached to them.

 

[mickiel]

So the bible is like a metaphor for evolution ?

The bible has nothing to do with evolution. But now your mind will find venues for evolution, but I don't see how your going to get away with this insinuating Metaphor.

Peace.

 

[gnomon]

But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

So the debate was over before it started.

 

[monta]

The bible has nothing to do with evolution. But now your mind will find venues for evolution, but I don't see how your going to get away with this insinuating Metaphor.

Peace.

So this thread is just more rhetoric from you then?

 

[mickiel]

So the way you date the arrival of modern man in Europe is via "your own views"? How can you be serious? This is a joke, right?

I have never, ever, on this site or any other, dated the arrival of modern man to Europe.

Peace.

 

[Valjean]

Here, mickiel, is the Nova video I mentioned: Becoming Human Part 3 | NOVA | PBS Video

You might want to watch the first two episodes as well. Enjoy.

 

[mickiel]

So this thread is just more rhetoric from you then?

All my threads , all of them, are Rhetoric.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Here, mickiel, is the Nova video I mentioned: Becoming Human Part 3 | NOVA | PBS Video

You might want to watch the first two episodes as well. Enjoy.

Well the film is basically geared toward evolution, I hold no intrest in evolution and consider it a false theory and concept.

Peace.

 

[monta]

All my threads , all of them, are Rhetoric.

Peace.

Then you shouldn't be in the debates section, have you not read the rules and guidelines yet after all these years ? No wonder you keep getting your threads deleted and moved and so on :yes:

 

[mickiel]

So the debate was over before it started.

Any debate I enter is over before it started, any of them.

Peace.

 

[gnomon]

Any debate I enter is over before it started, any of them.

Peace.

I agree.

 

[mickiel]

Then you shouldn't be in the debates section, have you not read the rules and guidelines yet after all these years ? No wonder you keep getting your threads deleted and moved and so on :yes:

By Rhetoric I mean an art form. All of my threads are an art form. And Yes, I am destined to having most of them closed for one reason or another, and then to be banned from the website.

Such is simply my destiny.

Peace.

 

[monta]

By Rhetoric I mean an art form. All of my threads are an art form. And Yes, I am destined to having most of them closed for one reason or another, and then to be banned from the website.

Such is simply my destiny.

Peace.

In this scenario you are god then? as you are in control of destiny :biglaugh: and here was me thinking you were trying to portray a demon

 

[Valjean]

OK, here's how I'm reading you, mickiel:
You have this idee fixe that the Adam and Eve story of man's creation is true and axiomatic, and you're trying to argue away all contrary evidence or trying to make it fit into your own speculation that, though all evidence shows "cave men" to be as human as you or me, they could not have been because a truly human mind must needs "advance" into complex civilization. You see a stable culture, no matter how successful, functional or long-lived, as clear evidence of an animal mind.
Have I got this right?

 

[Valjean]

Then you shouldn't be in the debates section, have you not read the rules and guidelines yet after all these years ? No wonder you keep getting your threads deleted and moved and so on :yes:

I agree. A debate is a comparison of facts and evidence. Mickiel's arguing from an axiom that allows no contrary facts or evidence. His conclusion is writ in stone and we're brushing at it with a washrag. Of course this discussion is going nowhere.

No debate here folks, just move along.

 

[mickiel]

OK, here's how I'm reading you, mickiel:
You have this idee fixe that the Adam and Eve story of man's creation is true and axiomatic, and you're trying to argue away all contrary evidence or trying to make it fit into your own speculation that, though all evidence shows "cave men" to be as human as you or me, they could not have been because a truly human mind must needs "advance" into complex civilization. You see a stable culture, no matter how successful, functional or long-lived, as clear evidence of an animal mind.
Have I got this right?

No, you still do not understand me. Cavemen were as human as we are, I have never stated anything different. The only difference I have plainly stated is that we have consciousness, they didnot.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

I agree. A debate is a comparison of facts and evidence. Mickiel's arguing from an axiom that allows no contrary facts or evidence. His conclusion is writ in stone and we're brushing at it with a washrag. Of course this discussion is going nowhere.

No debate here folks, just move along.

Yes, I agree, my conclusions are written in stone.

Peace.

 

[MSizer]

No, you still do not understand me. Cavemen were as human as we are, I have never stated anything different. The only difference I have plainly stated is that we have consciousness, they didnot.

Peace.

Well that would mean (if they did not have conciousness) that they would not be human, or they were all in a coma, which would pretty much be impossible, since a person in a coma doesn't pass the time by whittling spear heads.

 

[Amill]

No. I believe God created cavemen with no consciousness, as well as prehistoric animals, he killed them both off , in my view. Why, I have little Ideal. Then he created Adam and Eve, and I believe we all are decendants from them.

Peace.

So he killed off all homo sapiens and then started them back up again with consciousness?