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Coincidence? What's That?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yesterday I was reminded me of a story a friend related to me, which I have mentioned on RF once before.

I have a friend -- let's call her Lisa -- who has sometimes told me of her painful and difficult childhood. Her hardships often were largely a consequence of the fact that her father was an alcoholic, rarely held a job, at least for very long, and was unstable in a number of ways. Soon after they married, Lisa and her husband allowed her father to live with them for a while, but that didn't work out well. At one point Lisa decided that she could no longer deal with her father's broken promises and deceptions, and ceased communication with him altogether. But she heard about him occasionally through her brother with whom she was close and who remained in contact with their father. Nevertheless, when I met Lisa, she and her father had not spoken with each other in more than 30 years.

Lisa eventually told me of a dream she had had several years before she and I met. In the dream, she was waiting at a bus stop, and her father walked up. In real life, her father always rode the bus because he never had a car. She said it was an unusual dream in its vividness, and the fact that she and he had a long, heartfelt talk about real things that happened in her childhood. She said her father looked older than when she had last seen him. Their conversation was very conciliatory and satisfying to her father, such that she understood things about her that she had never understood before. Eventually his bus came, they hugged, he boarded and it drove off. Lisa awoke after the dream; it was early morning, and she didn't get back to sleep. She was so impressed by the dream that it made her contemplate contacting him again

At breakfast the next morning, Lisa had begun telling her husband about the dream when the phone rang. It was her brother, who told her that their father had had a heart attack the night before, was taken to the hospital, and had died during the night. Lisa and her husband lived several timezones from where her brother and father lived; sometime later Lisa calculated that her father must have died around the time she was having the dream. After Lisa told me about this occurrence, her husband, at my behest, confirmed to me that Lisa had begun telling him about her dream when her brother called.

So this is my question: assuming that Lisa and her husband didn't just fabricate all the above, is it explanatory of the events (Lisa's dream and her father's death) to assert that they are a coincidence?

Dictionaries give "coincidence" definitions with subtle differences, which in turn raise different questions for me. For instance:

2: the occurrence of events that happen at the same time by accident but seem to have some connection​

Definition of COINCIDENCE

In light of this definition, I ask: by what method does one determine that the occurrences of Lisa's dream and her father's death were an accident? Is there in fact a method by which to determine that Lisa's dream and it coinciding with her father's death were accidental?

The Wikipedia article says:

A coincidence is a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another.​

Coincidence - Wikipedia

This article goes on to assert

From a statistical perspective, coincidences are inevitable and often less remarkable than they may appear intuitively.​

But the article does not offer any reason to conclude that complex events such as Lisa's dream and its coinciding with her father's death were inevitable. The article eventually refers to "Littlewood's law," which the article says is "related to the more general law of truly law numbers". But as far as I can tell, neither of these "laws" could be used to calculate a probability of the coinciding of Lisa's dream and her father's death.

But the hypothetical proposition raises a relevant question in my mind. Namely, does a non-zero probability of two events coinciding always and necessarily eliminate other explanations for the two events happening together? E.g., if there could be found a non-zero probability of Mohamed Atta and Wail al-Shehri independently getting tickets on AA Flight 11 on 9/11/2001 and showing up with box cutters with plans to hijack the plane and fly it into North WTC, does it necessarily rule out that they conspired to perpetrate that crime?

If so, then that would seem to destroy the value of most all circumstantial evidence upon which people are routinely convicted of crimes.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
But the article does not offer any reason to conclude that complex events such as Lisa's dream and its coinciding with her father's death were inevitable.
Why should there be any significance attached to a child dreaming of their parents? Seems she may have wanted to communicate certain things to him, and that it just so happened to occur in close proximity to her father's death is coincidence.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why should there be any significance attached to a child dreaming of their parents?
How often do you dream of one of your parents, in particular the one you have cut ties with and haven't spoken to in 30 years?

I can't remember having a dream about either of my parents. My father died 35 years ago, and I do not recall having any dream about him since.

BTW, if you believe that a non-zero probability of an event happening eliminates all other explanations, then please address my questions about the 9/11 hijackers.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Memories are notoriously unreliable.
What is remembered or forgotten is a function of later events.
Memories are continually reconstructed.
So it's easy to strongly believe that one communicates telepathically, predicts the future, etc.
It's just not objective.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Nous , I can see you’re searching for answers.

It’s hard to see this as a coincidence. I don’t believe it is. Could be, though.
But these things happen occasionally. I read of a similar incident — supposed to have been prior to his death — concerning pilot Walter Raymond Henchliffe.

Here’s what I think (are you ready?):

I do not believe in life after death (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Not immediately, anyways...the Resurrection comes later. — John 6:44

I think incidents like these are deceitful attempts by powerful forces to keep people thinking that there’s life after death. (That’s why there are so many seemingly credible ghost stories, like Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia.) It’s just imposters.

Many want to believe in life after death, anyway. It just reinforces their misconceptions. — Revelation 12:9b.

(Anything to discredit what the Bible really teaches.)

I guarantee you, when her father is resurrected — and he probably will be (John 5:28-29) — he won’t know a thing about this....because it wasn’t him.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
She said it was an unusual dream in its vividness...

I've had a couple of extremely vivid "dreams" that I accept as non-dreams. One was of that kind where someone I did not know was really sick visited me for an instant saying "I go to God" as she flashed by. It was only days later that I learned she had died at that point.

Skeptics will of course dismiss such things. But to me, they are utterly real and indicate that existence is a more expansive place than the purely physical. They key to me is the sense of exceptional vividness and often or at least sometimes a tie with something material happening.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I had one maybe about a week ago.

For whatever reason you didn't answer my question, and haven't responded to any question in the OP.

But I have a better question for you: Of all the people you have ever known but haven't talked to or thought about in at least 10 years, how many of times have you had a vivid dream about one of them at approximately the time that the person died?

Note, I'm asking for a quantity -- a ratio.

My answer to the same question would yield a zero probability.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Memories are notoriously unreliable.
What is remembered or forgotten is a function of later events.
Memories are continually reconstructed.
So it's easy to strongly believe that one communicates telepathically, predicts the future, etc.
It's just not objective.

I don't see how issues of memory are explanatory of any matter topical of this thread.

Why don't you address the questions the OP asks? Is there a method by which to determine that events such as the coinciding of Lisa's dream and her father's death was an "accident"?

Does a non-zero probability of 2 events coinciding rule out other explanations for their coinciding? If a non-zero probability could be calculated for Mohamed Atta and Wail al-Shehri independently getting tickets on AA Flight 11 on 9/11/2001 and showing up with box cutters with plans to hijack the plane and fly it into North WTC, does it necessarily rule out that they conspired to perpetrate that crime?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It’s hard to see this as a coincidence. I don’t believe it is.
I agree, at least insofar as "coincidence" is defined as something more than two events temporally coinciding. And that's really the issue that I wanted to raise here, not how one might otherwise account for the conjunction of the events. I think it wouldn't be uncommon for people to assert that the coinciding of the described events is a "coincidence," as though that term were explanatory, but with any clear meaning for that word.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Nous

My thought on the Lisa story is that the best explanation is actually a paranormal experienced called Shared Death Experience

I think my friend would agree -- such an explanation did cconflict somewhat with her worldview. But since then, she seems to have become very fond of the holographic principle, and eats up all evidence that is consistent with that thesis. (Her son-in-law, a physcist at CERN, helps her to understand this evidence.) She generally scoffs at the idea that the universe is an object that has volume and that time is ultimately real.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've had a couple of extremely vivid "dreams" that I accept as non-dreams. One was of that kind where someone I did not know was really sick visited me for an instant saying "I go to God" as she flashed by. It was only days later that I learned she had died at that point.

Skeptics will of course dismiss such things. But to me, they are utterly real and indicate that existence is a more expansive place than the purely physical. They key to me is the sense of exceptional vividness and often or at least sometimes a tie with something material happening.

Thank you for sharing that. Were there any other oddities that you can note about these dreams -- besides their vividness and conveyance of precognitive information?

I've had only one precognitive dream that I remember -- since I had a particular "explanatory" dream in my early 20s, I remember very few dreams; 2 or 3 per year. This precognitive dream was very vivid, very brief (or I remember only a brief portion of it), and it was about such a trivial matter I find it embarrassing to give details about it. But it was quite explicit, and about an extraordinary and unimaginable occurrence.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

I definitely conclude that one should evaluate occurrences such as described in the OP in accordance with our best evidence and logic. @George-ananda described the shared death experience as "paranormal" (I don't like that term -- I think it's prejudicial), other people might say the OP describes an example of anomalous cognition, but according to our best scientific evidence and theories, and sheer logic, in which physicalism entails panpsychism, I see no reason to use such term as "paranormal" or "anomalous".

In any case, as far as ancient literature, I prefer Plato, Aristotle and some of the Adviatin writings.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't see how issues of memory are explanatory of any matter topical of this thread.

Why don't you address the questions the OP asks? Is there a method by which to determine that events such as the coinciding of Lisa's dream and her father's death was an "accident"?

Does a non-zero probability of 2 events coinciding rule out other explanations for their coinciding? If a non-zero probability could be calculated for Mohamed Atta and Wail al-Shehri independently getting tickets on AA Flight 11 on 9/11/2001 and showing up with box cutters with plans to hijack the plane and fly it into North WTC, does it necessarily rule out that they conspired to perpetrate that crime?
Memory characteristics matter because the perception of coincidence
so often depends upon which perceptions are ignored, which are given
weight, & how they change over time.
You speak of making probability quantitative, but provide no analysis.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Some times coincidence chances can be calculated roughly. I bumped into a person I knew from a close by city here in Canada in Tiruchendur, South India. So we were there on the same day. Let's say we each go one day every 10 years, over a certain time frame. So that's one day in 3650 days, each. So the chances of us being there on the same day is one in 3650 timesed by same ratio, which is one in 13 million. Coincidence? I think so, because there was no other 'psychic' reason.

But the death stuff happens to a lot of people. A few months back I awoke thinking of a childhood friend. Wondering how he was doing, I googled his name, and found his obituary, (day before) and when the funeral would be, which was 4 days from then. So it happens. However you interpret it is up to the individual.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Memory characteristics matter because the perception of coincidence
so often depends upon which perceptions are ignored, which are given
weight, & how they change over time.
You speak of making probability quantitative, but provide no analysis.
I bet I've read more on the issue of the reliability of memory than you have.

Note that I prefaced my questions with "So . . . assuming that Lisa and her husband didn't just fabricate all the above . . ." If that assumption upsets you, then you are free to not post here.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Some times coincidence chances can be calculated roughly. I bumped into a person I knew from a close by city here in Canada in Tiruchendur, South India. So we were there on the same day. Let's say we each go one day every 10 years, over a certain time frame. So that's one day in 3650 days, each. So the chances of us being there on the same day is one in 3650 timesed by same ratio, which is one in 13 million. Coincidence? I think so, because there was no other 'psychic' reason.
Thank you.

So when you use the word "coincidence " here, you mean that there is just a non-zero probability. Is that correct?

If so, does a non-zero probability of coinciding events happening necessarily eliminate other explanations? See the example of the 9/11 hijackers.
But the death stuff happens to a lot of people. A few months back I awoke thinking of a childhood friend. Wondering how he was doing, I googled his name, and found his obituary, (day before) and when the funeral would be, which was 4 days from then. So it happens. However you interpret it is up to the individual.
Wow!

Yeah, "the death stuff" does happen a lot -- seemingly more often than "anomalous cognition" of other kinds of events.
 
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