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Christians, why did god decide to have animals affected by the sin of Adam & Eve?

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
I believe procreation was pretty well understood back then. And just how does the story explain procreation anyway?
Let me rephrase that; maybe it was a story of why there is procreation. When that was written, women were seen more of as property and could not be ordained by God (within the Christian/Judaic religions). The story of Adam & Eve (IMO) is just a fancy way of saying, women tempt me into sex that is why they carry the burden of childbirth.
 

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
No, this does not counter omnibenevolence, or any other aspect of God's greatness. You assume we have rights before God. We do not.

How can one be benevolence to legos?
So you call God a liar; after all He gave us the right to free will?
 

Sum1sGruj

Active Member

God put animals here to serve man and be eaten- no?
Tell you what, don't eat for a while and you will see what I mean.


Anyways, I believe in life, and I believe in souls. Souls are our conscience. Our bodies are life. Animals are life, but have no souls.
You can see this at play if you were to ask an animal their philosophies. They have none.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
God put animals here to serve man and be eaten- no?
Tell you what, don't eat for a while and you will see what I mean.


Anyways, I believe in life, and I believe in souls. Souls are our conscience. Our bodies are life. Animals are life, but have no souls.
You can see this at play if you were to ask an animal their philosophies. They have none.

Genesis says that both humans and animals are souls.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Adams position in Gods arrangement was one of a caretaker. By moving out of that role, the earth and animals were left without a caretaker.


Gen 1:26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

There are many things i would like to say about this.
1.I have never seen the term 'subjection' meaning anything close to caretaker.
2. As i read Genesis, i always had the feeling that Adam & Eve stood in Eden their whole lifetime until they were expelled from Eden after eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. If that is the case, how were Adam & Eve taking care of every living animal?
3. In your previous post you have said that mankind was supposed to protect animals. Protect the animals from what? From other animals? From God?

Gen 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it

From the point that Adam was evicted from Eden, the earth and animals came out from under his dominion.

This still doesn't answer the topic question.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Let me rephrase that; maybe it was a story of why there is procreation. When that was written, women were seen more of as property and could not be ordained by God (within the Christian/Judaic religions). The story of Adam & Eve (IMO) is just a fancy way of saying, women tempt me into sex that is why they carry the burden of childbirth.
So you're implying that if women didn't tempt men into having sex they wouldn't get pregnant and therefore "carry the burden of childbirth." Evidently then god made women temptresses so they would tempt men into having sex in order to get pregnant just so they would "carry the burden of childbirth." Now why would god do such a thing? To punish women because Eve ate the fruit? If that's the case then men are getting the better end of the deal, cool sex with no strings attached, while women are made to suffer. Seems awfully discriminatory to me considering Adam was just as guilty as Eve.
 
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Noaidi

slow walker
In the same sense this creation is God's to do with as He pleases. Being perfect God has every right to demand perfection. And every right to destroy us if we are not perfect, or even every right to destroy uss even if we are perfect. We, along with the plants and animals are His property.

There is no such thing as fairness between us and God. God cannot be unfair to us. No more then I can be unfair to my legos.

I'm with Koldo on this. Lego isn't sentient. Lego can't drown and experience pain and fear whilst doing so. If you take a literal reading of the story, then this is what your god did. All because of 'sin' entering one species??
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I'm with Koldo on this. Lego isn't sentient. Lego can't drown and experience pain and fear whilst doing so. If you take a literal reading of the story, then this is what your god did. All because of 'sin' entering one species??
Perhaps he means that god cares for us as much as we care for legos?
 

Hodad

Member
Why does a nuclear power plant meltdown in Japan affect anyone besides the Japaneses?

Who is man that God should make us privy to all His thoughts and plans? And if we did understand everything, then we would be God's, and I would sure hate having most the people I know having God status (Some all ready act as if they do).
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Why does a nuclear power plant meltdown in Japan affect anyone besides the Japaneses?

Who is man that God should make us privy to all His thoughts and plans? And if we did understand everything, then we would be God's, and I would sure hate having most the people I know having God status (Some all ready act as if they do).

So you don't know why...
 

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
So you're implying that if women didn't tempt men into having sex they wouldn't get pregnant and therefore "carry the burden of childbirth." Evidently then god made women temptresses so they would tempt men into having sex in order to get pregnant just so they would "carry the burden of childbirth." Now why would god do such a thing? To punish women because Eve ate the fruit? If that's the case then men are getting the better end of the deal, cool sex with no strings attached, while women are made to suffer. Seems awfully discriminatory to me considering Adam was just as guilty as Eve.
Not that I think that men are not responsible for their offspring. In biblical times, this is just how they did things. This to me is just another story trying to explain the reasons for why people do the things they do (cultural/religious excuses). I personally do not take the story of Adam and Eve as historical documentation so much as I do a parable or tale trying to explain the reasoning behind what is nothing more than nature itself (which we are all a part of). Once again, may I state that I do not feel that the representation portrayed in the story is necessarily correct, but at the same time it does give one something to ponder about.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Christians, why did god decide to have animals affected by the sin of Adam & Eve?
Animals can't have 'sin', so why were the effected. According to the bible, animals didn't 'eat' / 'harm' one another, but now they do?
they ate and harmed plants, so they used to be even more evil.:D
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Plants = Life
Animals = Life + Emotion and Instint
People = Life + Emotion and Instint + Reason and Faith

without faith and reason animals are merely another part of the world around us undistint from it. HUmanity was given dominion over the world. Humanity's fall influences everything upon which humanity has authority.
I think most animals have reason, but not faith math logic. it think emotion is an instict... i'll might have other thoughts later
 

horizon_mj1

Well-Known Member
Genesis says that both humans and animals are souls.
Animals have spirits guiding them where people have both souls and spirits. No where in the Bible is it stated "the soul of animals" or even "animals have souls". A soul is an embodiment of self while the spirit is the communication between living creatures. Animals are here for our consumption and pleasure, so why would they need a soul?

Could you state which Bible you are reading, where it is stated that animals have souls, as well as what translation you read this from?
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
I don't believe plants/animals have souls. They lack the ability to grow crops, so they eat each other. They do not have the reason necessary to distinguish right from wrong. Their alleged 'reason' is about as potent as a placebo. They are here mainly to serve man and be made food.
ants grow crops. my dog will try his best not to poo inside the house. no i think they are here mainly to try to reproduce and survive. As the Egyptians used to say: the only thing animals obviously lack is bread and alcohol. :D
 
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Luminous

non-existential luminary
Animals have spirits guiding them where people have both souls and spirits. No where in the Bible is it stated "the soul of animals" or even "animals have souls". A soul is an embodiment of self while the spirit is the communication between living creatures. Animals are here for our consumption and pleasure, so why would they need a soul?

Could you state which Bible you are reading, where it is stated that animals have souls, as well as what translation you read this from?
That's the thing, most Christian that I know think spirit and soul are the same thing, My agnostic Christian brother thought they were distinct things...and that God breathed LIFE, which means anything alive has a soul and/or spirit. but since Animals don't get judged they don't have souls. so my brother thought animals only have spirits. So in any case, the "Soul" came from the fruit of knowledge, which all of Adam and Eve's decendants are now cursed with. It is a sort of Identity. it is the "I" or "Me". Even bacteria and Fungi have spirits. But only humans have "souls". But all these "immaterial" things...they are just odd belives. If we believe in aphysical things, what stops "Hababaloo" from existing. It is one of the reasons that I didn't really see how my brother's knowledgable explination of a reasonable form of semi-Biblical Christianity even mattered. reasonable is not mean true.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Not that I think that men are not responsible for their offspring. In biblical times, this is just how they did things. This to me is just another story trying to explain the reasons for why people do the things they do (cultural/religious excuses). I personally do not take the story of Adam and Eve as historical documentation so much as I do a parable or tale trying to explain the reasoning behind what is nothing more than nature itself (which we are all a part of). Once again, may I state that I do not feel that the representation portrayed in the story is necessarily correct, but at the same time it does give one something to ponder about.
I agree the story is just that and nothing more; however, your interpretation of it is
"The story of Adam & Eve (IMO) is just a fancy way of saying, women tempt me into sex that is why they carry the burden of childbirth."
which you have still not explained as I asked. So I await your answer as to how you came about such an interpretation.
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
Plants = Life
Animals = Life + Emotion and Instint
People = Life + Emotion and Instint + Reason and Faith

without faith and reason animals are merely another part of the world around us undistint from it. HUmanity was given dominion over the world. Humanity's fall influences everything upon which humanity has authority.

bingo! metaphorical!
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
There are many things i would like to say about this.
1.I have never seen the term 'subjection' meaning anything close to caretaker.

the subjection refers to the animals...they are subjects of mankind which puts mankind as their keepers. And if you think about it, that recognition is still in us. We still have a desire to care for animals and make attempts to do so with zoo's and breeding programs and nature reserves etc.

2. As i read Genesis, i always had the feeling that Adam & Eve stood in Eden their whole lifetime until they were expelled from Eden after eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. If that is the case, how were Adam & Eve taking care of every living animal?

their home was in the garden, and outside of the garden was the 'wilderness'. The animals would have freely roamed both garden and wilderness. It was only Adam and eve who were expelled from the garden, the animals would likely have continued to wander through the garden as they always had done.

3. In your previous post you have said that mankind was supposed to protect animals. Protect the animals from what? From other animals? From God?

to care for them is what i meant.
 
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