Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

[omega2xx]

There are many "health laws" not related to food, should those be kept ?

I am not sure which ones you are think of, but I would assume any law for good health should be kept.

How about the sabbath, should that be kept, even though God said it was specifically a sign of the Covenant between he and Israel ?

There are 3 requirements about keeping the Sabbath: Remember it---keep it holy and no working.

Ex 31:13We need to remember who sanctified us.

Deut 5:15 - We need to remember who freed us from bondage.

IMO, we keep it holy by remembering what God has done for us.

IMO we are not to work for our sanctification or our freedom from bondage(basically the law). That is like saying we don't believe God has done those things for us.


Also, the Sabbath is a shadow of the good things to come---Col 2:16-17.

There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God(Heb 4:9).

 

[shmogie]

I am not sure which ones you are think of, but I would assume any law for good health should be kept.



There are 3 requirements about keeping the Sabbath: Remember it---keep it holy and no working.

Ex 31:13We need to remember who sanctified us.

Deut 5:15 - We need to remember who freed us from bondage.

IMO, we keep it holy by remembering what God has done for us.

IMO we are not to work for our sanctification or our freedom from bondage(basically the law). That is like saying we don't believe God has done those things for us.


Also, the Sabbath is a shadow of the good things to come---Col 2:16-17.

There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God(Heb 4:9).

Well, there is a law that says women menstruating are unclean, and should be put away, that anyone who touches a dead body is ritually unclean and numerous others along these lines. As an ex ordained Seventh Day Adventist, I know a bit about the sabbath. There are actually at least three different sabbath's, the commands written on stone that Paul said were fading away and to be replaced , the 4th commandment was about the weekly sabbath. The requirements weren't allegorical, they were literal. No work means literally no work. remember means heed sundown friday to sundown saturday, keep it holy means no activities but holy activities, study, church, prayer meetings no games, secular activities etc., etc. The sabbath rest in Hebrews refers to the rest in Christ being superior to the weekly sabbath. Anyway, my original point was that the sabbath was not kept by anyone till just before Siniai, and it was given specifically to Israel as the sign of the covenant between they and God. It was never for Gentiles, and it was part of the "moral law" written on stone that Paul said had lost it's glory. Why ? Because a new law, called the Royal law or the law of Christ was part of the new covenant, the old one having passed away.

 

[oldbadger]

The new covenant seems to be to not let keeping the Old covenant law prevent you from doing good. It all seems to boil down to what God told Cain. "If you do well shouldn't you be rewarded?". So the new covenant is to do good so that you receive your reward in heaven.

Some people seem to think hearing old testament laws is having it pushed on them. Their ears can't stand it, it's unavoidable. Because the law is good for teaching purposes.

I'm just so glad that we've got some of these problems out of the way. In which case, obviously a Christian would b e prepared to uphold the moral laws of the Old Testament, and not discard them.
Here's just a few that I would like Christians to keep to in future... Don't feel that I;'m being pushy, will you?

1. All Christians to present themselves in order to assist in the loading and unloading of neighbours' trucks, cars and lorries as and when required. They must also assist in offering a free 'honestart' service to any neighbours who are having difficulty with their vehicles.
Ex 23.5 Deut 22.4

Christians are banned from possession of more than a fixed amount of wealth, including gold and silver stocks.
Deut 17.17

Christians in business are no longer permitted to destroy products, waste, food before it is placed in skips for removal. Thge poor will be allowed access to company skips for the purpose of acquiring any discarded merchandise for their own use or consumption.
Lev 19.9-10 Lev23.22

Where over-production occurs the excess may not be re-cycl;ed but must be offered for the use of the poor. This applies to farm produce as well as commerce/industry.
Deut 24./19-20

Christians will submit accounts for their entire wealth so that suitable taxation can be gathered for the provision of the poor.
Deut 15.7 Deut 15.11

Christians are required, whenever their funds allow, to lextend loans to the poor, and Court Actioons for repossession in the event that the poor cannot repay are not permitted. Reasonable arrangements for repayment must be made,
Ex. 22:24 Ex.22:24

 

[oldbadger]

. God repealed the dietary laws(Acts 10:9-16).

You've got dietary laws in the New Covenant.
Christians are banned from eating blood, bloody meat, strangeled meat or sacrificial meat.
True?

I think that if Christians wish to retain the moral laws then they should retain ALL the moral laws. This list is fairly long..
I have already listed a few, but there are more.....

 

[oldbadger]

There are actually at least three different sabbath's, the commands written on stone that Paul said were fading away and to be replaced , the 4th commandment was about the weekly sabbath. The requirements weren't allegorical, they were literal. No work means literally no work. remember means heed sundown friday to sundown saturday, keep it holy means no activities but holy activities, study, church, prayer meetings no games, secular activities etc., etc. The sabbath rest in Hebrews refers to the rest in Christ being superior to the weekly sabbath. Anyway, my original point was that the sabbath was not kept by anyone till just before Siniai, and it was given specifically to Israel as the sign of the covenant between they and God. It was never for Gentiles, and it was part of the "moral law" written on stone that Paul said had lost it's glory. Why ? Because a new law, called the Royal law or the law of Christ was part of the new covenant, the old one having passed away.

Hi.... Am I right about the following.... ?

Christians may choose which days will be Sabbath days, if indeed they want Sabbath days at all. ROMANS 14:5-7; COLOSSIANS 2:14-17

No Christian is allowed to judge other Christians about their choices of Holy Days or Sabbath Days, this includes the alignment of major feats such as Easter with the Spring Equinoctial Full Moon. COLOSSIANS 2:14-17; ROMANS 14:5-7

 

[omega2xx]

Well, there is a law that says women menstruating are unclean, and should be put away, that anyone who touches a dead body is ritually unclean and numerous others along these lines.

I have to admit things like that and few others, I have never understood. IMO they were not sin. They were for information. As far as we know they did not have Kotex and it would have been unhealthy for a woman to continue he normal activities dripping blood. For her safety it would be better for he to stay as inactive as possible. If someone's parents did it was necessary for the body to be touched. That would only make the person ritually unclean for a time and he would not be allowed to do certain things, but it was not permanent, and there was no blood sactifice for this.

As an ex ordained Seventh Day Adventist, I know a bit about the sabbath.

I don't know how much of the SDA view of the Sabbath you have held on to but they have a distorted and unBiblical view of it and of the dietary laws. The have an unhealthy obsession with both.

There are actually at least three different sabbath's, the commands written on stone that Paul said were fading away and to be replaced , the 4th commandment was about the weekly sabbath. The requirements weren't allegorical, they were literal.

Scriptural.

No work means literally no work. remember means heed sundown friday to sundown saturday, keep it holy means no activities but holy activities, study, church, prayer meetings no games, secular activities etc., etc.

IMO, not Scriptural.

First of all the Sabbath is a shadow the the good things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ---Col 2:16-17.

The Sabbath is a reminder of who sanctified us(Ex 31:13). It is a reminder of who freed us from bondage to the worlds system(Deut 5:15). This is what we are to remember, and remembering them and being thankful is how we keep the Sabbath holy.

IMO no works is not literal. IMO it speaks of working for the the things God has done for us---sanctified us and set us free. If we works for those things, it is saying I don't believe God had done that for me. I will also add the SDA is a legalistic denomination. I will also add the Bible does not indicate any day o the week we are to attend a religious service forf worship. We should worship God every day and every day we should remember that He has sanctified us and freed us from bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery(the yoke of slavery was the law as the means of salvation).

The sabbath rest in Hebrews refers to the rest in Christ being superior to the weekly sabbath.

Agreed

Anyway, my original point was that the sabbath was not kept by anyone till just before Siniai, and it was given specifically to Israel as the sign of the covenant between they and God. It was never for Gentiles, and it was part of the "moral law" written on stone that Paul said had lost it's glory. Why ? Because a new law, called the Royal law or the law of Christ was part of the new covenant, the old one having passed away.

I don't see where it was a sign of the covenant. Ex 31:13 says it was a sign that God has sanctified us. All of the 10 commandments are for everyone, not just the Jews.

 

[Kemosloby]

I'm just so glad that we've got some of these problems out of the way. In which case, obviously a Christian would b e prepared to uphold the moral laws of the Old Testament, and not discard them.
Here's just a few that I would like Christians to keep to in future... Don't feel that I;'m being pushy, will you?

1. All Christians to present themselves in order to assist in the loading and unloading of neighbours' trucks, cars and lorries as and when required. They must also assist in offering a free 'honestart' service to any neighbours who are having difficulty with their vehicles.
Ex 23.5 Deut 22.4

Christians are banned from possession of more than a fixed amount of wealth, including gold and silver stocks.
Deut 17.17

Christians in business are no longer permitted to destroy products, waste, food before it is placed in skips for removal. Thge poor will be allowed access to company skips for the purpose of acquiring any discarded merchandise for their own use or consumption.
Lev 19.9-10 Lev23.22

Where over-production occurs the excess may not be re-cycl;ed but must be offered for the use of the poor. This applies to farm produce as well as commerce/industry.
Deut 24./19-20

Christians will submit accounts for their entire wealth so that suitable taxation can be gathered for the provision of the poor.
Deut 15.7 Deut 15.11

Christians are required, whenever their funds allow, to lextend loans to the poor, and Court Actioons for repossession in the event that the poor cannot repay are not permitted. Reasonable arrangements for repayment must be made,
Ex. 22:24 Ex.22:24

You're still trying to go by a written code rather than on faith. Even Jesus didn't go around healing and giving to the poor indiscriminately, like some sort of robot.

 

[omega2xx]

You've got dietary laws in the New Covenant.
Christians are banned from eating blood, bloody meat, strangeled meat or sacrificial meat.
True?

No. We are banned from eating those things if it might cause a weak brother to stumble.

I think that if Christians wish to retain the moral laws then they should retain ALL the moral laws. This list is fairly long.. I have already listed a few, but there are more.....

As far as I know, Christians accept any moral law established by God. We do not limit it to the 10 commandments.

 

[shmogie]

Hi.... Am I right about the following.... ?

Christians may choose which days will be Sabbath days, if indeed they want Sabbath days at all. ROMANS 14:5-7; COLOSSIANS 2:14-17

No Christian is allowed to judge other Christians about their choices of Holy Days or Sabbath Days, this includes the alignment of major feats such as Easter with the Spring Equinoctial Full Moon. COLOSSIANS 2:14-17; ROMANS 14:5-7

Absolutely correct.

 

[oldbadger]

You're still trying to go by a written code rather than on faith. Even Jesus didn't go around healing and giving to the poor indiscriminately, like some sort of robot.

Dead right I am!
Jesus went around as a land displaced handworker in the 2nd order of the peasants. There was no middle class. Jesus was financially not rich!

If Christians want to quote any Old Testament Laws, the moral ones, then they have to expect to support all of them, the moral ones. These laws are the DIVINE ORDERS OF GOD, as passed down by HIS ORDAINED PROPHETS., so don't knock 'em!

However, if you would like to jhoin those Christians who accept that the 613 and the Old Covenant were fulfilled at Jesus'#s death (or resurrection) and move on tro the NEW Covenant then that would be fine..... excellent even.

There is still a problem, really, in that if any Christians might wish to tgake the moral high ground with the Neew Testament Laws, Rules and Guidelines, there are many hundreds of these which they could possibly be held to keep.

It's time to take the flexibility out of Christian self righteousness, in other words.

Look, I'm just having fun with ideas, but on the serious side, there are many who feel very very serious about all this.

 

[oldbadger]

No. We are banned from eating those things if it might cause a weak brother to stumble.

As far as I know, Christians accept any moral law established by God. We do not limit it to the 10 commandments.

Hello....

I expect that you would keep all moral laws. Yes.

But I'm afraid that you're average Christian doesn't keep one of those laws which I posted earlier. Indeed, rich Christians probably send their pennies (and dimes) far far across mighty seas to tiny little tax havens .... and such.

I don't mind naughty Christians. They might even be more fun than moral and holy ones, but when a Christian takes the moral high ground, offering self righteous judgement against others (who are not harming anybody, but maybe busting an OT law here and there) then it will be time to get the magnifying glass out and see what they are doing wrong.

Like I said, I expect that you are a righteous Christian who does not judge others, but there are a few around here, honestly.

 

[oldbadger]

Absolutely correct.

Yep!

Oh that's just a start.... the 613 offer the most delightful chores for any righteous Christian who might wish to cling to any of 'em.

I'm not sure but I might even be able to get my garden lawn mown for free!

 

[oldbadger]

Absolutely correct.

Happy Birthday!

I've just seen it!

 

[oldbadger]

I have to admit things like that and few others, I have never understood. IMO they were not sin. They were for information. As far as we know they did not have Kotex and it would have been unhealthy for a woman to continue he normal activities dripping blood. For her safety it would be better for he to stay as inactive as possible. If someone's parents did it was necessary for the body to be touched. That would only make the person ritually unclean for a time and he would not be allowed to do certain things, but it was not permanent, and there was no blood sactifice for this.



I don't know how much of the SDA view of the Sabbath you have held on to but they have a distorted and unBiblical view of it and of the dietary laws. The have an unhealthy obsession with both.



Scriptural.



IMO, not Scriptural.

First of all the Sabbath is a shadow the the good things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ---Col 2:16-17.

The Sabbath is a reminder of who sanctified us(Ex 31:13). It is a reminder of who freed us from bondage to the worlds system(Deut 5:15). This is what we are to remember, and remembering them and being thankful is how we keep the Sabbath holy.

IMO no works is not literal. IMO it speaks of working for the the things God has done for us---sanctified us and set us free. If we works for those things, it is saying I don't believe God had done that for me. I will also add the SDA is a legalistic denomination. I will also add the Bible does not indicate any day o the week we are to attend a religious service forf worship. We should worship God every day and every day we should remember that He has sanctified us and freed us from bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery(the yoke of slavery was the law as the means of salvation).



Agreed



I don't see where it was a sign of the covenant. Ex 31:13 says it was a sign that God has sanctified us. All of the 10 commandments are for everyone, not just the Jews.

What?
Breaking any of the 613 laws was a SIN.
Sin led to Sickness, Weakness, Separation, Social Breakdown...... which was caused by SIN.

Christians see sin differently, but back then Sin led to Sickness.

Quite often, when Jesus had healed somebody, he told them that their sins were forgiven and not to sin again.

That paralysed kid over in Capernaum may well have been eating shellfish = SIN. If you look up shellfish poison paralysis on googers you will see just how deadly it was and still is., both fgresh and saltwater varieties.

Jesus wanted a return to the old laws, discarded by a hellenised and corrupt priesthood. He want Heaven on Earth.

It got spun into the Christian thing by Paul and others. Christianity is Pauline, methinks.

 

[Kemosloby]

Dead right I am!
Jesus went around as a land displaced handworker in the 2nd order of the peasants. There was no middle class. Jesus was financially not rich!

If Christians want to quote any Old Testament Laws, the moral ones, then they have to expect to support all of them, the moral ones. These laws are the DIVINE ORDERS OF GOD, as passed down by HIS ORDAINED PROPHETS., so don't knock 'em!

However, if you would like to jhoin those Christians who accept that the 613 and the Old Covenant were fulfilled at Jesus'#s death (or resurrection) and move on tro the NEW Covenant then that would be fine..... excellent even.

There is still a problem, really, in that if any Christians might wish to tgake the moral high ground with the Neew Testament Laws, Rules and Guidelines, there are many hundreds of these which they could possibly be held to keep.

It's time to take the flexibility out of Christian self righteousness, in other words.

Look, I'm just having fun with ideas, but on the serious side, there are many who feel very very serious about all this.

Try all things. I've gone through phases where I thought one thing was important then read a different part and think something else was important. But I think I had the most powerful connection when I was trying to keep the Saturday Sabbath and praying a lot for understanding of certain passages that I found interesting.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?
How were some O.T. laws dropped, and others kept?
A few Christians can be self-righteously judgemental about the lives, feelings, cultures, sexualities and beliefs of others.
Exactly what laws are within the New-Covenant, and which others 'repealed'?

Jesus summed up the meaning behind the Law, when he said "Love your neighbor as yourself." He added, "This is what the Law and the Prophets mean."

Are there other Laws to follow, ones that may not be so easy to discern by love? The Bible answers this also, at Acts of the Apostles 15. (The whole chapter gives us insight into how issues were resolved among Christians, by the Apostles.) Specifics are outlined in vss. 28,29.

What probably helped the apostles reach their decision on keeping that part of the Law that required avoiding ingesting blood (Leviticus 7:26-27; Leviticus 17:10-14), was that this command was also given to Noah, for all his offspring to obey (Genesis 9:4), not just Jews....it should apply to everyone. So the Apostles kept it, too.

Also included, was the counsel to avoid fornication (no sex until marriage.) Now that is hard to keep in the society we live in, but there certainly are health benefits --physically and emotionally -- in obeying it! God knows what is best for our welfare.

In fact, I see a correlation between peoples' lose morals today (little family structure), and the rise in crime committed by selfish and unloved individuals, i.e., the children from these non-committed unions.

This is one issue, to me, that gives credence to the Bible's claim of Divine Authorship!

 

[omega2xx]

What?
Breaking any of the 613 laws was a SIN.
Sin led to Sickness, Weakness, Separation, Social Breakdown...... which was caused by SIN.

True but that has nothing to do with me not understanding all of them.

Christians see sin differently, but back then Sin led to Sickness.

Spiritual sickness, not physical sickness. Same today.

Quite often, when Jesus had healed somebody, he told them that their sins were forgiven and not to sin again.

Right.

That paralysed kid over in Capernaum may well have been eating shellfish = SIN. If you look up shellfish poison paralysis on googers you will see just how deadly it was and still is., both fgresh and saltwater varieties.

Maybe that is why God put it on the do not eat list.

Jesus wanted a return to the old laws, discarded by a hellenised and corrupt priesthood. He want Heaven on Earth.

Not true. Jesus wanted to get away from the Jewish legaist system

It got spun into the Christian thing by Paul and others. Christianity is Pauline, methinks.

What Paul and others wrote was what God inspired them to write.

 

[pearl]

The kosher food thing makes Jews a lot of money every year rather than it being a religious requirement.

For several years I was on the nursing staff at a Jewish health care facility, and believe me, the kosher food thing' was very much a religious requirement.

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus summed up the meaning behind the Law, when he said "Love your neighbor as yourself." He added, "This is what the Law and the Prophets mean."

Hi....
The entire 613 were written so the the tribes grew stronger, safer, more secure, socially bonded....... all together..... neighbours! ....... which is what Jesus meant from a Jewish perspective. That's what his mission was about, imo, the fulfillment of the discarded laws.

But since Christians think it mdeant Love and understanding it would be a great help if they stopped judging self righteously quite so much as some of them do.

Are there other Laws to follow, ones that may not be so easy to discern by love? The Bible answers this also, at Acts of the Apostles 15. (The whole chapter gives us insight into how issues were resolved among Christians, by the Apostles.) Specifics are outlined in vss. 28,29.

OK, but that's 'church' policies and decsions. I focuis on what Jesus said and did.

What probably helped the apostles reach their decision on keeping that part of the Law that required avoiding ingesting blood (Leviticus 7:26-27; Leviticus 17:10-14), was that this command was also given to Noah, for all his offspring to obey (Genesis 9:4), not just Jews....it should apply to everyone. So the Apostles kept it, too.

That's fine. But many Christians can't even keep those laws. Where I klive black-pudding has been a favourite dish for generations.

Also included, was the counsel to avoid fornication (no sex until marriage.) Now that is hard to keep in the society we live in, but there certainly are health benefits --physically and emotionally -- in obeying it! God knows what is best for our welfare.

2000 years ago desease could rip through a tribe, people or country in n o time at all. Oneperson/one partner was one way of reducing some of the sickness that could wipe out a tribe.
Today those same laws are DREADFUL! Couples marry 'blind' to each other's sexual tastes, only finding out too late that they are not suited. Affairs can lead to separatkions, divorces and single parenthood.
With modern medicine a change in that law could result in couples marrying 'eyes-open' to each other in every way, thus giving the marriage every chance of success.

In fact, I see a correlation between peoples' lose morals today (little family structure), and the rise in crime committed by selfish and unloved individuals, i.e., the children from these non-committed unions.

Christianity has a 2000 year old history of utter corruption, genocides, invasions, enslavements, rape, hypocrisy and more. Morals could not possibly get worse than existed in Christian history.
Even the Christian Court system was utterly corruopted, as described by Dickens. Christianity has been riddled with loose morals going way back.
..... just sayin'...

This is one issue, to me, that gives credence to the Bible's claim of Divine Authorship!

I totally accept the history of the Israelites, and the limited histories of both John the VBaptist and Yeshua BarYosef both leading missions for an end to priesthood corruption.
But Christians have even lost the use of Yeshua's name since the 16th century when 'Jesus' appeared, that's how myopic Christianity really is.

I'm an HJ student, and admire Yeshua and John immensely, equally, so I don't think I've got an agenda about any of this.

 

[shmogie]

Happy Birthday!

I've just seen it!

Thank You !