Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

[shmogie]

Yep!

Oh that's just a start.... the 613 offer the most delightful chores for any righteous Christian who might wish to cling to any of 'em.

I'm not sure but I might even be able to get my garden lawn mown for free!

As long as it isn't done on Saturday

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@oldbadger wrote:
"Christianity has a 2000 year old history of utter corruption, genocides, invasions, enslavements, rape, hypocrisy and more. Morals could not possibly get worse than existed in Christian history.
Even the Christian Court system was utterly corruopted, as described by Dickens. Christianity has been riddled with loose morals going way back.
..... just sayin'..."

And you are so right!
Christendom has an awful reputation! But their behavior is not the Bible's fault.

Have you ever bought an entertainment center, with all the separate pieces, that you have to put together? I have....and thought I could do it without the instructions the manufacturer provided. Grief was that a mistake! It just wasn't coming together! But I didn't blame the instructions, I blamed myself. Once I followed the instructions, everything came together.

Christendom hasn't "followed the instructions"; for one thing, many of Christendom's leaders haven't really been interested in their flocks' spiritual wellbeing, only their pocketbooks.

So unlike Jesus!

 

[oldbadger]

True but that has nothing to do with me not understanding all of them.

Not one of the 613 is spiritual, and every one of them is obvious and understandable.

Spiritual sickness, not physical sickness. Same today.

Wrong! There is not one single law amongst the 613 that does not have physical reason for its existence.
Jesus wanted the laws returned because they would have brought security, cohesion, safety etc back to the Jewish people.

Maybe that is why God put it on the do not eat list.

Exactly! Just another of the 613 physical ways of keeping the tribes strong!

Not true. Jesus wanted to get away from the Jewish legaist system

Jesus wanted away from the corrupted money-go-round that the Temple and all in it had become. He wanted all the other laws re-instated.

What Paul and others wrote was what God inspired them to write.

Christianity is Pauline. But, even so, the Christian Prophets and Apostles did see fit to include some of the 613 buried with the several hundred Christian laws of the New Testament.

 

[oldbadger]

As long as it isn't done on Saturday

Sundays would be fine!

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger wrote:
"Christianity has a 2000 year old history of utter corruption, genocides, invasions, enslavements, rape, hypocrisy and more. Morals could not possibly get worse than existed in Christian history.
Even the Christian Court system was utterly corruopted, as described by Dickens. Christianity has been riddled with loose morals going way back.
..... just sayin'..."

And you are so right!
Christendom has an awful reputation! But their behavior is not the Bible's fault.

Have you ever bought an entertainment center, with all the separate pieces, that you have to put together? I have....and thought I could do it without the instructions the manufacturer provided. Grief was that a mistake! It just wasn't coming together! But I didn't blame the instructions, I blamed myself. Once I followed the instructions, everything came together.

Christendom hasn't "followed the instructions"; for one thing, many of Christendom's leaders haven't really been interested in their flocks' spiritual wellbeing, only their pocketbooks.

So unlike Jesus!

Yes! Yes!
But....... if Jesus had won over the Jewish working people, enough to make a difference, then His ideas would have been a perfect Jewish nation, like back in the days before the Judges, even.

And me? I would still be a Northern European Pagan..... sadly, because I have the most tremendous respect for Jesus.

 

[shmogie]

I have to admit things like that and few others, I have never understood. IMO they were not sin. They were for information. As far as we know they did not have Kotex and it would have been unhealthy for a woman to continue he normal activities dripping blood. For her safety it would be better for he to stay as inactive as possible. If someone's parents did it was necessary for the body to be touched. That would only make the person ritually unclean for a time and he would not be allowed to do certain things, but it was not permanent, and there was no blood sactifice for this.



I don't know how much of the SDA view of the Sabbath you have held on to but they have a distorted and unBiblical view of it and of the dietary laws. The have an unhealthy obsession with both.



Scriptural.



IMO, not Scriptural.

First of all the Sabbath is a shadow the the good things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ---Col 2:16-17.

The Sabbath is a reminder of who sanctified us(Ex 31:13). It is a reminder of who freed us from bondage to the worlds system(Deut 5:15). This is what we are to remember, and remembering them and being thankful is how we keep the Sabbath holy.

IMO no works is not literal. IMO it speaks of working for the the things God has done for us---sanctified us and set us free. If we works for those things, it is saying I don't believe God had done that for me. I will also add the SDA is a legalistic denomination. I will also add the Bible does not indicate any day o the week we are to attend a religious service forf worship. We should worship God every day and every day we should remember that He has sanctified us and freed us from bondage. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery(the yoke of slavery was the law as the means of salvation).



Agreed



I don't see where it was a sign of the covenant. Ex 31:13 says it was a sign that God has sanctified us. All of the 10 commandments are for everyone, not just the Jews.

• You are looking in the wrong place. Look at Ex. 31; starting at v 12-17 You will find that the sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, no one else. How to keep the sabbath is specified in Ex. 35;1 . It certainly wasn't allegorical. Yes, even some SDA's are confused about the rules of health they keep. It has nothing to do with Biblical laws. It came about by Dr. john Harvey Kellogg, an SDA, and the inventor of corn flakes. He developed a set of health principles, primarily on diet that through the church leadership was adopted. There is something in it, because they are the longest living demographic in the country. As to sabbath keeping, they believe Christians are required to keep it, and they follow the Biblical rules in doing so.

 

[omega2xx]

Not one of the 613 is spiritual, and every one of them is obvious and understandable.

and Symbols

1. To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.
2. To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing (Num. 15:38) (CCA10). See Tzitzit and Tallit.
3. To bind tefillin on the head (Deut. 6:8) (CCA9). See Tefillin.
4. To bind tefillin on the arm (Deut. 6:8) (CCA8). See Tefillin.
5. To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house (Deut. 6:9) (CCA12). See Mezuza

All of these and more have a spiritual meaning.

Wrong! There is not one single law amongst the 613 that does not have physical reason for its existence.

What is the reason for #3 above?

Jesus wanted the laws returned because they would have brought security, cohesion, safety etc back to the Jewish people.

Non of the laws had been eliminated while Jesus was on the earth. The laws do not bring security they bring doubt because no one can keep them perfectly/

Exactly! Just another of the 613 physical ways of keeping the tribes strong!

Keeping them might keep them strong, but no one can keep them perfectly and that makes one spiritually weak. Christianity is abut being strong spiritually.

Jesus wanted away from the corrupted money-go-round that the Temple and all in it had become. He wanted all the other laws re-instated.

At that time NONE of the laws had been eliminated.

Christianity is Pauline.

That is one of the saddest and most ignorant things anyone can say about Christianity. It shows a complete lack of understanding.

But, even so, the Christian Prophets and Apostles did see fit to include some of the 613 buried with the several hundred Christian laws of the New Testament.

Christianity does not have several hundred laws. Another indication you have no understanding of Christianity.

 

[omega2xx]

Start with this premise---All of the Bible is for all of God's people. Surely you are not suggesting the 10 commandment don't apply to Christians. In fact you push Sabbath keep way beyond what it teaches.

• You are looking in the wrong place. Look at Ex. 31; starting at v 12-17 You will find that the sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, no one else.

I quoted Ex 31:13 and there is no indication it is only for the Jews, and there is no indication we need to attend a religious service on the Sabbath.

How to keep the sabbath is specified in Ex. 35;1

.

Not so. Ex 20:8-9 tell us how to keep the Sabbath.

It certainly wasn't allegorical.

Biblical allegories are based on literal events. So it is both literal and figurative.

Yes, even some SDA's are confused about the rules of health they keep. It has nothing to do with Biblical laws. It came about by Dr. john Harvey Kellogg, an SDA, and the inventor of corn flakes. He developed a set of health principles, primarily on diet that through the church leadership was adopted. There is something in it, because they are the longest living demographic in the country. As to sabbath keeping, they believe Christians are required to keep it, and they follow the Biblical rules in doing so.

The rules SDA keep are based on Biblical laws. That is why you don't eat pork e.g. WE do keep the Sabbath, but not in the way you prescribe. The Sabbath is not a bout being healthy, it is about honoring God for what He has done for us.


Ps 22:17b - They divided My garments and for My clothing they cast lots.

Jn 19:24 - So they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture, They divided My outer garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.

 

[oldbadger]

To circumcise the male offspring

Exact Identification of any Jew. All outsiders were to be treated with utmost caution and some races had to be killed 'on the spot' Disease Control, Security and Safetry.

To put tzitzit on the corners of clothing.

Commandments reminder and identification

To bind tefillin on the head.

Mnemonics! Brilliant highly effiicient memory aids AND Identification.

To bind tefillin on the arm .

Mnemonics! Brilliant highly effiicient memory aids AND Identification.

To affix the mezuzah to the doorposts and gates of your house

Mnemonics. Commandments Reminder! Never Forget a Single law!
We use Law Mnemonics where I live all the time, everywhere!!!

All of these and more have a spiritual meaning.

Every single one of the 613 was written for the benefit, strength, safety, security and longevity of the tribes of Israel! You've mixed up Spirituality with the wiordv 'meditation;', which kis 'deep concentrated thought', which is how these incredibly brilliant laws were decided upon.

 

[oldbadger]

Non of the laws had been eliminated while Jesus was on the earth. The laws do not bring security they bring doubt because no one can keep them perfectly/

Many had been eliminated before and while Jesus lived! Why do you think he was campaigning for support to re-instate them? Sure he wanted the Sacrificial money-go-round done away with, often said so, but all the rest were his mission to re-install. They brought massive success to the Israelites, and they were kept to the letter for hundreds of years.

Keeping them might keep them strong, but no one can keep them perfectly and that makes one spiritually weak. Christianity is abut being strong spiritually.

What nonsense! So Christians won't have laws because they can't keep them and that causes spiritual weakness? Where did you get these ideas from?
I would love to know what you think 'Spirit' is, come to think of it.

At that time NONE of the laws had been eliminated.

Scores of 'em had been discarded. You need to study this subject. The vast majority of the priesthood had become hellenised, for goodness sake. They had become HYPOCRITES! Please read what John the Baptist said about them.

Christianity does not have several hundred laws. Another indication you have no understanding of Christianity.

You are so wrong. Christianity has several hundred guides, rules and laws and they are all written down in the New Testament. Some re-affirm OT laws, but many new ones are shown.
Are you telling me that I, a Deist, have to teach you, a Christian, about the Christian Guides, Rules and Laws? This is just gobsmacking, cheekslapping amazin'.

 

[oldbadger]

Keeping them might keep them strong, but no one can keep them perfectly and that makes one spiritually weak. Christianity is abut being strong spiritually.

Amazing!
So no Christians can keep laws perfectly, but they want to interfer with, and self[-righteously reproach others who want to live by other standards?

That is exactly what this thread is about.
I don't mind the idea of naughty Christians who cannot keep rules and laws. I do mind naughty Christians getting all judgemental about other people's standards.

 

[shmogie]

No, what I am positing is that the first covenant, including the entire and complete law, does not apply to Christians. Divisions between laws, picking and choosing are an unauthorized exercise, they all stand or fall together. Now, read carefully, the law of Christ, part of the new Covenant, is what applies now. EVERY one of the 10 commandments but one are reiterated in the NT, some are changed to be stronger, e.g. adultery, murder in the heart as opposed to just the act, etc. So the standard is the Royal law, or the law of Christ, not the law of the OT. People want to keep the 10 commandments, which is fine no one can find fault with them ( though they totally ignore one) however the law Christians are under is richer, fuller, and has deeper meaning

 

[shmogie]

Amazing!
So no Christians can keep laws perfectly, but they want to interfer with, and self[-righteously reproach others who want to live by other standards?

That is exactly what this thread is about.
I don't mind the idea of naughty Christians who cannot keep rules and laws. I do mind naughty Christians getting all judgemental about other people's standards.

Christians are sinful humans, like every other person on the planet. Further, there are those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. So, Christians have not cornered the market on being righteous, and every time I stupidly say something un Christian, it reflects in many eyes on my faith. It shouldn't though. If you are going to judge Christianity not by Christ and his teachings, but by me, you are going to have at times a handful of dry sand. Using the faith to judge others is totally a counter productive exercise, nevertheless, we are what we are

 

[oldbadger]

Christians are sinful humans, like every other person on the planet. Further, there are those who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. So, Christians have not cornered the market on being righteous, and every time I stupidly say something un Christian, it reflects in many eyes on my faith. It shouldn't though. If you are going to judge Christianity not by Christ and his teachings, but by me, you are going to have at times a handful of dry sand. Using the faith to judge others is totally a counter productive exercise, nevertheless, we are what we are

That's cool.
On behalf of the Studd Hill Full Moon Frolickers I would like to state that we are utterly beyond reproof as regards keeping to our strict codes and rules! Our rule 12 would really shock you though....

I've never loosed off like this before. I've been on forums for many years now and followed threads where Christians have objected to variouis kinds of lifestyles, more often quoting the OT that NT rules and laws and I've always let it go, never really started to look more deeply into the issues.

For several years I have studied Historical Jesus, never continuing far beyond the end of Jesus's earthly mission, the execution. But three months ago I decided to look into Historical Christianity, a completely different subject, and this is how I've started to fall over these New and Old Covenant rules.

I will back off on this subject now, but I have learned so much in such a short time that I think that I might be able to debate more vigorously on future occasions when such 'lifestyle' type debates might crop up.

You'ree probably the very best kind of Christian, just by the way you write, methinks.

 

[shmogie]

That's cool.
On behalf of the Studd Hill Full Moon Frolickers I would like to state that we are utterly beyond reproof as regards keeping to our strict codes and rules! Our rule 12 would really shock you though....

I've never loosed off like this before. I've been on forums for many years now and followed threads where Christians have objected to variouis kinds of lifestyles, more often quoting the OT that NT rules and laws and I've always let it go, never really started to look more deeply into the issues.

For several years I have studied Historical Jesus, never continuing far beyond the end of Jesus's earthly mission, the execution. But three months ago I decided to look into Historical Christianity, a completely different subject, and this is how I've started to fall over these New and Old Covenant rules.

I will back off on this subject now, but I have learned so much in such a short time that I think that I might be able to debate more vigorously on future occasions when such 'lifestyle' type debates might crop up.

You'ree probably the very best kind of Christian, just by the way you write, methinks.

Thanks, but not hardly !

 

[omega2xx]

Exact Identification of any Jew. All outsiders were to be treated with utmost caution and some races had to be killed 'on the spot' Disease Control, Security and Safetry.

Commandments reminder and identification

Mnemonics! Brilliant highly effiicient memory aids AND Identification.

Mnemonics! Brilliant highly effiicient memory aids AND Identification.

Mnemonics. Commandments Reminder! Never Forget a Single law!
We use Law Mnemonics where I live all the time, everywhere!!!

Every single one of the 613 was written for the benefit, strength, safety, security and longevity of the tribes of Israel! You've mixed up Spirituality with the wiordv 'meditation;', which kis 'deep concentrated thought', which is how these incredibly brilliant laws were decided upon.

None of those laws were meant to be taken literally. Putting a box of Bible verse on your foreheads will not give you understanding of them.

God was telling the people to meditate one His word, to mentally agree with it.

Rom 7:25 - Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Psa 1:2 - But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he mediates day and night.

 

[omega2xx]

Amazing!
So no Christians can keep laws perfectly, but they want to interfer with, and self[-righteously reproach others who want to live by other standards?

It is not about wanting to, it is about being able to.

Ps 14:3 - They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

That is exactly what this thread is about.

Not exactly. It is about which laws to keep.

I don't mind the idea of naughty Christians who cannot keep rules and laws. I do mind naughty Christians getting all judgemental about other people's standards.

I accept God's standard as describe in the Bible. I Joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man(Rom 7:22). My point is no one can keep the law. Are you really saying you can keep all of God's laws perfectly all the time?

 

[omega2xx]

No, what I am positing is that the first covenant, including the entire and complete law, does not apply to Christians. Divisions between laws, picking and choosing are an unauthorized exercise, they all stand or fall together. Now, read carefully, the law of Christ, part of the new Covenant, is what applies now. EVERY one of the 10 commandments but one are reiterated in the NT, some are changed to be stronger, e.g. adultery, murder in the heart as opposed to just the act, etc. So the standard is the Royal law, or the law of Christ, not the law of the OT. People want to keep the 10 commandments, which is fine no one can find fault with them ( though they totally ignore one) however the law Christians are under is richer, fuller, and has deeper meaning

God's laws can be divided into at least 3 categories: dietary laws, ceremonial laws, which would include the Levitical, sacrificial laws, and the moral laws.

God and Jesus eliminated the dietary laws; the sacrificial laws cannot be performed Biblically any longer. All of God people are required to keep the moral laws.

 

[oldbadger]

None of those laws were meant to be taken literally.

Really. So they didn't actually have to carry them out, eh?

Look, there are 613 laws, all written for the safety, security, cohesian, health and strength of the Israelites, and you picked five which you thought were 'spiritual' and you were wrong.

 

[oldbadger]

It is not about wanting to, it is about being able to.

Ps 14:3 - They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.



Not exactly. It is about which laws to keep.



I accept God's standard as describe in the Bible. I Joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man(Rom 7:22). My point is no one can keep the law. Are you really saying you can keep all of God's laws perfectly all the time?

Can we agree that Christians have a new covenant filled with guidance, rules and laws, and you seem to still want to cherrypick the old covenant laws to your whims and fancies as it suits you, but you won't keep all of the moral ones such as shown previously?
If you don't accept the new testament laws then how can you accept God's standards?

There are hundreds in the NT.