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Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?
- Thread starter oldbadger
- Start date
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Fair enough.
If you was still a Christian, I would ask for a list of the 'moral laws' or any way to determine consistently which laws are moral....... but I'll get to ask a Christian soon enough, I expect.
I'll google 'Noahide' and find out more about you all.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Fair enough......
I do believe in repeals, though.
The UK repealed loads of old laws in about 2004, ones which I had once used to arrest people, before that time.
But if a particular Church held to the whole lot I would respect that.
Hi........ that is exactly what I seek to discover...... where can I find the list of ALL the commandments or laws that a Christian must keep to.......?
Do you know all these laws? I need to list them.
For each servant used for God's purpose, they get difference commands to obey. Here's what God commanded Moses after Moses questioned whether he could speak good enough;
Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
THankyou again.....
I can see that you are a non-denominational Christian.
Let me see if I can think of an Old Testament Law.....
Here is one of the 613:-
Do not work on the Sabbath Day . (Ex. 20:10)
Do you keep to that law, or does is not have to be kept? Of course the Sabbath is really a Saturday, I think....
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
RESOLUTION
Active Member
There are laws which were limited to the Israelites themselves and their communities.
Like Circumcision for instance part of the Abraham covenant.
When Abraham came to God his faith in what God told him was accounted to him as righteousness.
There was no laws at this point in time.
Then because of his covenant with Abraham, God saved his people from the Egyptians and with Moses made a covenant
with them. Those laws and covenant was for the Jews and was for the land they went in to.
The laws were to protect them in the times they lived and to come to understand what sin was.
Sin entered by one man Adam and it was one Man Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for all mankind.
We are believers live all over the world. The laws do not allow people to stone others to death and the fact that breaking one commandment means you have broken them all makes everyone a sinner. Hence we cannot take arms against another as Christ taught when the woman caught in adultery was about to be stoned. When he said the person without sin can cast the first stone they all walked away the eldest first. Christ had no sin, but when asked who there was left to condemn her, she said " No One". He said:- " I do not condemn you either, go but do not sin again,"
Christ did not do away with the Law and teachings of the Prophets - he fulfilled it. So we cannot judge and put to death others.
But we uphold the law by means of loving others. We are saved by Grace but we uphold the law because adultery like stealing is still a sin.
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
Do you know what double bind of attacking your own native citizens means your own people while while supporting supposedly gods laws. Or should I in force something else like the calf god while then you can say nothing applies.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
And there, my ernest question, if adultery and theft is still unlawful for Christians, as spoken by Jesus together with murder...... what other laws are there for Christians and by whose authority?
At random...... can a woman be a priest, for instance?
RESOLUTION
Active Member
You appear unable to separate the COVENANTS from the Laws.
The Christian is saved through Christ not obedience to the law. But they uphold the laws as in Love they neighbour and God.
As I explained some laws were only relevant to the Jews/Israelites at that time.
King James Bible
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
In Christ there is no male or female and all Christians are priests they are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood.
So clearly all Christians are priests. As for the Churches they are man made creations.
Christs Church are those born of Spirit and Truth.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
When asked about which of the Israelites' laws they keep to, some Christians answer that they have a new-covenant, thus connecting legislation and contract together.
But I do know the secular difference between law and covenant.
Got it!
So some laws were only relevant to the Jews, at that time.
May I ask you, which laws are still relevant at this time?
So far it seems as if Christians don't have to hold to any laws apart from nmot stealing, murdering or committing adultery.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Reading the above, many folks who call themselves 'Christian', and all Christian Churches (man made) are not in fact true Christians..... is that so?
..... and so all their rules and laws are junk?
meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
you're welcome.
SethZaddik
Active Member
The New Testament certainly is confusing regarding this issue, according to Paul the Law is"dead" "a curse" and was "ordained by angels" so he is not a reliable source, if he had bothered to read the Torah he would know that the Law was given by God to Moses and that nobody ever claims otherwise but him should be enough to rule out everything Paul says. At least regarding the Law.
Jesus said to obey all the Commandments, he didn't say anything other than that Love God and love your neighbor would fulfill this.
When James was consulted by Paul regarding circumcision before Barnabas left him, he gave four simple rules, decrees he got from the Holy Spirit.
No eating meat sacrificed to idols, strangled animals and blood, the fourth was against fornication (unless married obviously).
Paul teaches, contradicting the Holy Spirit, that idols are nothing and it is OK to eat idol meat as long as your weaker brother is not around.
Any exegete could tell you he is defying God by defying the Holy Spirit and maybe even blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that his direction not to do it in front of the Judaizers, ie, James and Jerusalem, is just saying it so they don't get caught and he doesn't get exposed for teaching against the Law.
Jesus in Revelation considers Paul's teachings on idol meat "the doctrine of Balaam." And condemns it, also stating to the Ephesians that they did good unmasking false apostles.
In the end James laid down the Law, the Jews with him kept the Law of Moses, were angry with Paul for teaching JEWS to forsake Moses, and declared the Law of Moses not incumbent upon Greeks and Romans, non Jews.
So love God, love your neighbor, and this fulfills the Law as long as you don't violate the decrees of the Jerusalem Council and are Baptized with water, Spirit and fire...
You will realize Islam is closer to the religion of James and Jesus than Christianity is and that Paul is an admitted liar who can't be trusted.
Hopefully!
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Jesus said:-
Matthew: {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Maybe Jesus wanted a return of all the ancient laws, all 613, including all thiose for the care, protection and benefit of the working Jewish people which had been ignored by the fat, greedy, hypocritical quisling priesthood.
John the Baptist described them perfectly, imo.
Maybe Fulfillment was the re-enactment of the whole lot?
Matthew: {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Maybe Jesus wanted a return of all the ancient laws, all 613, including all thiose for the care, protection and benefit of the working Jewish people which had been ignored by the fat, greedy, hypocritical quisling priesthood.
John the Baptist described them perfectly, imo.
Maybe Fulfillment was the re-enactment of the whole lot?
SethZaddik
Active Member
Testament of Levi
13:3, 7-8
"Every man that knows the Law of God shall be honored,
And shall not be a stranger wherever he may go...
For though there be a leading into captivity,
And cities and land be destroyed,
And gold and silver and every possession perish,
The Wisdom of the wise can take away nothing,
Except the blindness of ungodliness,
Or the callousness of sin..."
I quote this Apocryphal book because according to the master scholar who translated it Paul quotes from the book it belongs to called "Testament of the 12 Patriarchs" so many times I will have to check how many. But I was reading it and coincidentally it says that about wisdom, in a good light.
"I came to destroy the wisdom of the wise." 1Corinthians 1:19
Why would a man who knew this Apocryphal book and quoted it extensively want to destroy the wisdom that saves souls?
Odd.
13:3, 7-8
"Every man that knows the Law of God shall be honored,
And shall not be a stranger wherever he may go...
For though there be a leading into captivity,
And cities and land be destroyed,
And gold and silver and every possession perish,
The Wisdom of the wise can take away nothing,
Except the blindness of ungodliness,
Or the callousness of sin..."
I quote this Apocryphal book because according to the master scholar who translated it Paul quotes from the book it belongs to called "Testament of the 12 Patriarchs" so many times I will have to check how many. But I was reading it and coincidentally it says that about wisdom, in a good light.
"I came to destroy the wisdom of the wise." 1Corinthians 1:19
Why would a man who knew this Apocryphal book and quoted it extensively want to destroy the wisdom that saves souls?
Odd.
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meghanwaterlillies
Well-Known Member
I like Jesus and James, and Moses. Paul was just curious as to why they acted as they did. "a curse" and was "ordained by angels." If not than worship angels, so who wrote the anonymous Hebrews page, I wonder. To in force that worship of angels. Anyways; I like how Moses watched a few of them.. it scrambled in out with Minoan crap and the golden calf that suffered their wifes into polygamy or divorce, and you know the other horrible things. Moses was like bye. Really the hardest of hearts. So they waited and waited to leave and they said they were like grasshoppers in the land of giants. And then by the time Jesus came along they are swearing upon gold again and making them debtors to it mean while back at the ranch; John the Baptist is eating grasshoppers. That is ironic. I wonder if he had a staff.
SethZaddik
Active Member
They didn't have a 613 law system then and today it is not agreed upon what those laws are and is impossible to fulfill some.
What he said was if you Love God and love your neighbor as yourself, you fulfill the whole Law.
Hillel the Rabbi also said this and added "the rest is commentary, go learn."
SethZaddik
Active Member
All I know is Paul was a mischief maker and admitted liar who said things about the Law that are easily contradicted by the Torah.
And for the other equally valid reasons I mentioned he was obviously a con man, still conning the people who know no better that he knew Jesus PBUH, when he didn't.
And nobody is on record vouching for his alleged secret revelations either, yet Paul himself insists that two or three witnesses are required to verify such claims, any claim really, quoting the OT and thus indicting himself.
He has ZERO witnesses and many contradictions that make it not believable at all. I don't think Luke believed it as he certainly made sure each of 3 accounts of the Damascus road story, his and two of Paul's, irreconcilably disagree and directly contradict each other.
Exegesis is not something that Christians care much about, to them he is in the Bible and it is all the proof they need.
But any competent unbiased exegete or scholar can spot the scam that is the false apostle Paul.
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