Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

[shmogie]

Where does the NT say either Royal Law or Christ's Law?

And Christians never were a part of the so called old covenant, Jews had converts to Judaism but they were expected to uphold the Law.

Likewise Christ PBUH upheld the Law and declared every word of it valid but added that as long as you obeyed his teachings, Love God love your neighbor, Baptism of water and Spirit, fire, and don't violate the four decrees of the Jerusalem Council they are fulfilling the requirements of the religion of Jesus PBUH and the Apostles PBUT.

However if you reject those teachings, a must if you obey Paul's, you are not on the narrow path but the wide one.

And they are not compatible. Every Christian has to make a choice between following Jesus PBUH or following the Churches and Paul, who is a liar that claims the Law was ordained by angels, is dead, a curse and basically spends his time writing, writing against the Apostles calling them Judaizers and the circumcision faction, false apostles of Christ and claims to have withstood Peter to his face and resisted men of James as if it is heroic to fight with Righteous men.

I have too much respect for the 12 Apostles to follow the teachings of a man who clearly hates them.

But at the same time if it is your belief that they are compatible teachings, that even though there can only be 12 Apostles according to Acts and Apocalypse, the Gospels, that a self proclaimed apostle, Paul, is legitimate even though it violates the Bible's other books and teachings to believe such a thing is even possible, that Jesus didn't get his estate in order and needed to recruit the enemy to get the job done because the Apostles were told to make disciples of all nations but Paul declared himself the sole apostle to the goyim and that his word is reliable without corroborated testimony...

I wish you the best.

 

[shmogie]

The book of James references the Royal law, and Christ's law as well. We could never agree, because to reject Paul is to reject most of what is Christianity. Peter certainly didn't reject him. So you practice your form of the Faith, and I will mine. I guarantee we will both learn who is right in the end. Peace

 

[jcforever]

I don't know what you mean by false prophet but I know that false prophets are enemies of God and the truth and while I do consider Paul to have been a false prophet I don't consider Christianity to be a false religion, just not the religion of Jesus PBUH.

That would be Islam. But regardless the Qur'an is different from the Bible in that all People of the Book can go to Heaven if they were Righteous.

Magians, Sabaeans, Christians and Jews are all expected to be judged along with Muslims.

As the Qur'an says and people ignore, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I will just add if anyone in history that we know of was a Prophet PBUH of God with proof it is Mohammed PBUH.

Despite what people might say Islam was successful because of diplomacy and missionary activity, not because of "the sword."

And Europe was in the Dark Ages until Islamic science and philosophy rescued it. Adapted from the very Greek wisdom the early Church ridiculed, was translated by Muslims and put to use in making an earthly paradise called the Islamic Empire.

Europe didn't catch up until they copied us and the Church has had less power ever since because people started thinking for themselves, like Muslims always had an obligation to do.

Mohammed is one of the false prophets I was referring to. All the prophets came before Jesus and Mohammed was not involved in the millennium reign of Christ of gospel preachers. He came after the first witness of servants like Joseph Smith of the Mormon religion. So Islam is similar to Mormonism or the Jehovah's Witness and the rest of Christianity.

All the Christians who interpret the scriptures are false prophets because they do not know God and have never heard his voice. Without hearing his voice, they have no way of knowing God.

Anyone following a religion on earth is deceived. The only true church is the invisible Spirit of God and that's where we all came from.

 

[oldbadger]

Any Laws regarding Temple sacrifice can't be fulfilled.

And it was not that they were not written down but they just didn't have the concept of 613, even now try finding a list of what the 613 are, you will find different lists if any.

I think that your post, this post, is absolutely the most helpful post so far, concerning which of the Israelite's laws can be 'put to one side by Christians'. I like it, that a Muslim needs to answer for Christians! Very good!
You have just got-rid of circa 96 of the 613 laws in the Old Testament. I counted them twice and reached totals of 95 and 97, but then, I'm myopic and it's early here. Can we agree on a round figure of 100?.... because then I can call the remaining laws the 513?
Oh, you can find them alright, and they're as clear as day!

They don't do sacrifices anymore because they don't have a Temple because they refuse to build it anywhere besides Temple Mount (of Herod's Temple) and that is never going to happen.

Occupado.

So both John the Baptist's and Jesus's wishes were granted. They were immersing folks in water and taking confession for the Remission of Sins at the start, and Temple takings must have fallen away, because thousands and thousands flocked to the Jordan..... for Remission of Sins.... for nothing or very little.

From now on I just need to discover which of the 513 remaining laws are kept by Christians, if any at all. Some Christians hgave answered that only two laws apply to Christians.... amazing!

 

[oldbadger]

It looks like a partial list.

Probably....... I'm just trying to get the whole list from any Christians who know about all this....... but just now you are leading the field for info, imo.

Yet the Law is dead....?

But you can't do things so is it really?

I dunno..... I'm a Pagan abiding by secular laws. It's the Christian laws I want to learn.

Such confusion, I am glad I converted to something that makes sense, at least if you like religion it does, I don't imagine atheists would agree with me, but I like my God one and my Prophets and Messiah (S) human.

Not God, Son of God (himself???) and son of man, an idiom meaning simply human in Hebrew.

When 3=1 maybe I will consider...

So, never.

Confusion? I would say, at this time, that confusion over Christian Laws is prresent.

 

[oldbadger]

I actually did explain this.

The ten commandments are fulfilled by fulfilling the greatest, love God, and the second, love your neighbor.

Plus the four decrees of the Jerusalem Council.

See my earlier comment for a full explanation.

Yeah.... I read it.
Now.... moving forward, a majority of Christian Laws were decided by the Jerusalem Council after Jesus had 'gone', have I got that right?

So folks like Judas and Silas and Cephas, the folks who received the visions etc which gave foundation to these 'four decrees', were Christianity's Prophets, yes?

Just tell me that I'm right, or warm, or anything, because if this is true then Jesus did not give foundation to the majority of Christian laws..... true?

 

[oldbadger]

...
.....
Jews refused to accept the new covenant even to this very day - they were not left out.

.... the New-Covenant.
Earlier you mentioned that 'No discriimination' was 'the'; Christian Rule. I think you mentioned that the O.T. laws were for the little Israelite tribe? Or something like that?
A Muslim member has mentioned the four Councils of Jerusalem, where the post mentioned the founding of lots of laws and rules etc.

Do you recognise and acknowledge the laws layed down during the Councils of Jerusalem? If so, do you know what they are?

Jesus dodn't seem to 'underwrite much of this', or that's my impression so far.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't know what you mean by false prophet but I know that false prophets are enemies of God and the truth and while I do consider Paul to have been a false prophet I don't consider Christianity to be a false religion, just not the religion of Jesus PBUH.

That would be Islam. But regardless the Qur'an is different from the Bible in that all People of the Book can go to Heaven if they were Righteous.

Magians, Sabaeans, Christians and Jews are all expected to be judged along with Muslims.

As the Qur'an says and people ignore, "There is no compulsion in religion."

I will just add if anyone in history that we know of was a Prophet PBUH of God with proof it is Mohammed PBUH.

Despite what people might say Islam was successful because of diplomacy and missionary activity, not because of "the sword."

And Europe was in the Dark Ages until Islamic science and philosophy rescued it. Adapted from the very Greek wisdom the early Church ridiculed, was translated by Muslims and put to use in making an earthly paradise called the Islamic Empire.

Europe didn't catch up until they copied us and the Church has had less power ever since because people started thinking for themselves, like Muslims always had an obligation to do.

I'll say this for Islam..... you can obtain a list of Islamic law (Shariah?) more easily than you can obtain a list of Christian law.
But it is the Christian laws that seek to know.

 

[oldbadger]

Jews have an eternal covenant and their New Testament is called the Talmud so if you think it is wrong for them to reject their religion for Christianity you are a fool.

They have more NEW teachings than Christianity would know what to do with, eternal covenants don't need revision.

Also the Hebrews who worshipped the cow were executed, except for Aaron who made it magically in the desert.

Moses had it ground to powder and mixed with water, the people were made to drink it and it made them easier for the Levites to kill.

So blaming today's Jews for that esoteric tale is not the most intelligent thing I have heard anyone say.

Or using the fact that they are not Christian, a Roman religion that obviously has no love for Jews and persecuted them for centuries, enslaved them and massacred them into the second diaspora, to claim they are in error is likewise ridiculous.

Your posts are most interesting.
If any Christian members are giving you any aggressive posts it could be diversion from the simple fact that they don't know their own laws.

 

[oldbadger]

All the laws of the Torah were part of the first covenant, which was fulfilled. Christians are under the second covenant, and the law we follow is called the Royal Law or Christs law in the NT. Some are stricter than in the Torah, e.g. adultery, but the "rules" for Christians are clearly spelled out in the NT

I cannot find a straight listing which clearly shows 'the Royal laws' or 'Christ's Laws' at this time.

I want to find that list.

What is confusing me is that ... all my life Christuians have quoted the old laws, such as the ten commandments, and now 'm being told that these were 'repealed' with the new-covenant.

The thing is, that I cannot see how Jesus built any large list at all....... he might have founded half a dozen ....?

It seems as if Christian law is built upon the visions of several Christian Prophets, Paul, Cephas, Silas and Judas being four of them?

 

[RESOLUTION]

Reading the above, many folks who call themselves 'Christian', and all Christian Churches (man made) are not in fact true Christians..... is that so?

..... and so all their rules and laws are junk?

TRUE CHRISTIANS.... Let us set a bench mark so you will never forget what a true Christian is:-

A person who loves God and follows the teachings of God and the Covenant made with his Son Jesus Christ to save all mankind. A man must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.
" But he who comes after me is greater than I, whose sandal I am not worthy to untie, I baptise with water but he who comes after me will baptise with the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all


38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.



The answers you seek are all in the Word, the Word Christ and the Word of the Prophets and of the Disciples.
But to know and understand these truths you have to want them for yourself to know God.

You correctly said: You do not understand the difference between a covenant and the laws, When you know these things you will be able to know what it means to be a Christian and not under the law whilst upholding the way of righteousness.

 

[oldbadger]

Where does the NT say either Royal Law or Christ's Law?

And Christians never were a part of the so called old covenant, Jews had converts to Judaism but they were expected to uphold the Law.

Likewise Christ PBUH upheld the Law and declared every word of it valid but added that as long as you obeyed his teachings, Love God love your neighbor, Baptism of water and Spirit, fire, and don't violate the four decrees of the Jerusalem Council they are fulfilling the requirements of the religion of Jesus PBUH and the Apostles PBUT.

However if you reject those teachings, a must if you obey Paul's, you are not on the narrow path but the wide one.

And they are not compatible. Every Christian has to make a choice between following Jesus PBUH or following the Churches and Paul, who is a liar that claims the Law was ordained by angels, is dead, a curse and basically spends his time writing, writing against the Apostles calling them Judaizers and the circumcision faction, false apostles of Christ and claims to have withstood Peter to his face and resisted men of James as if it is heroic to fight with Righteous men.

I have too much respect for the 12 Apostles to follow the teachings of a man who clearly hates them.

But at the same time if it is your belief that they are compatible teachings, that even though there can only be 12 Apostles according to Acts and Apocalypse, the Gospels, that a self proclaimed apostle, Paul, is legitimate even though it violates the Bible's other books and teachings to believe such a thing is even possible, that Jesus didn't get his estate in order and needed to recruit the enemy to get the job done because the Apostles were told to make disciples of all nations but Paul declared himself the sole apostle to the goyim and that his word is reliable without corroborated testimony...

I wish you the best.

Wonderful, wonderful post, imo.
I have never, ever, trusted Paul!

A 'thing' about Paul..... he lived into his 60's, I reckon, but never married. For a Jew to not marry at all, ever, may well have indicated tghat sexually something was different, somewhere, somehow. As read Paul's rants about homesexuality I am constantly reminded by Shakespeare's beautiful comment (in a play) ...
'Methinks he doth protest too much!'

 

[oldbadger]

With Christ this system (covenant) was fulfilled, ended. Note that the system of sacrifice and the temple ended in 70 AD, Jews no longer keep that most critical part of the first covenant.

The above (and more) was sent to another member.
Right, so circa 100 laws of the 613 are 'finished', those sacrificial laws.
There's only 513 to worry about, now!
Jesus was totally against the money-go-round of Sacrifice/confession for remission of sins.... it was just a 'fleecing machne', stripping working folks of what little funds they had collected.
John the Immerser and Jesus short-circuited that system until they were gone.

The new covenant is with any who believe. I am sure you are a very intelligent person but I will take the NT references to the law of Christ and the Royal law, and Paul's affirmation multiple times of a second and new covenant over your opinion.

Do you know where a list of the Royal Laws can be found. The whole list?

Since The words of Christ are the only laws to be kept, do you ignore the various " you should do's" written by the Apostles outside of the Gospels ?

In which case, all these other people who founded Christian law are PROPHETS, yes?
Where is a list of these laws..... the complete list?

 

[oldbadger]

TRUE CHRISTIANS.... Let us set a bench mark so you will never forget what a true Christian is:-

Really?
There are 3000+ varying Creeds, Denominations and Churches, and your version is THE version, correct?
And you don't know the exact law for Christians..... do you.??

You correctly said: You do not understand the difference between a covenant and the laws, When you know these things you will be able to know what it means to be a Christian and not under the law whilst upholding the way of righteousness.

...and not under the law.....!!!
What you do not understand, is that if you walked out into most western countries' public places and started chanting that rubbish..... you could possibly get arrested for incitement!
If you did this in many Mid-East or Eastern countries you could possibly get executed!

I need to tell you something about true Christians..... They uphold the laws in their own countries. But ! am interested in 'CHRISTIAN LAWS'.
For instance, I would like to know if it is lawful for Christian Prirsts and Bishops to be female. The Church of England says that it is. That's a Christian Church, but is that Church Right? ................For instance.

Now...... do you know the Christian laws..... or not?

 

[oldbadger]

Christianity was not a system of written laws but an exercise of our conscience, based on the principles behind the law.

I'm very confused.......

Jesus said..........................
Look closely at what he said. "On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

The whole law......... masses of laws.... and several prophets. !!!!
So far I have found four Christian prophets, Judas, Silas, Paul and Cephas. I expect that there will be more.
And if the NT is the Divine Word of God, all ordained by God, I have found a hundred or so laws, so I am very confused about what Christians have told me so far on this thread.

You tend to make everything so black and white OB

Well, the Christian word, the Divine Word of the Christian God, writ large by ordained persons, is clear as day, in BLACK and WHITE. True?
Christians who might pronounce Christian opinion, especially self righteous opinion, are going to need to show that they keep the lot.

So far, at first glance, I would rather be Jewish than Christian. Want an example? Here we go:-

Jewish Law (Old Covenant):-
Do not afflict a widow (Ex. 22:21

Christian Law (New Covenant):-
Refuse to support young widows from church funds (1 TImothy 5:11)

..... I hope it's not all like that, 'cos at a glance it ain't looking good.

 

[MJFlores]

.... the New-Covenant.
Earlier you mentioned that 'No discriimination' was 'the'; Christian Rule. I think you mentioned that the O.T. laws were for the little Israelite tribe? Or something like that?
A Muslim member has mentioned the four Councils of Jerusalem, where the post mentioned the founding of lots of laws and rules etc.

Do you recognise and acknowledge the laws layed down during the Councils of Jerusalem? If so, do you know what they are?

Jesus dodn't seem to 'underwrite much of this', or that's my impression so far.

Old Testament is only for the ancient Israelites - if you would read closely the introduction on:
Exodus 20:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

And God spoke all these words:

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Sir @oldbadger did God brought you out of Egypt? Did God brought you out of slavery? Definitely not.

Second - God already introduced a New Covenant as he mentioned this in:

Jeremiah 31:31-32 New International Version (NIV)

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

God said to the prophet Jeremiah, who wrote it - I will make a new covenant and It will not be like the covenant - because they broke my covenant If Moses was the mediator of the old covenant who is the mediator of the new covenant?

Hebrews 9:15 New International Version (NIV)

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Since Christ is the mediator of the new covenant what happens to the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:13 New International Version (NIV)

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

So among the ten commandments - what is obsolete? Just one the Sabbath - Matthew 12:1-8

What else are obsolete? Eating pigs, cat fish, crabs, shrimps, snakes - Acts 10:10-16 Acts 11:4-10

What are things not allowed to eat? Food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals
Acts 15:20 Acts 15:29 Acts 21:25

Council of Jerusalem? Must be about circumcision? Well that is settled by apostle James the head of church administration of the 1st century church of Christ. Circumcision was declared optional and we could read this in:

Acts 15:1-20 New International Version (NIV)

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. Simon has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

“‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’—
things known from long ago.
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Jews worshiped the golden calf and they walked the desert for 40 more years - they did not get thrown out

Jews refused to accept the new covenant even to this very day - they were not left out.

View attachment 16435

You know meghan there is a software in your PC called MS Picture Manager or MS Paint which could improve on your profile pic (find the rotate left or right icon to use) so people won't develop neck cramps when they want to look at you.

I know but that's not what I meant its like when your using scripture or something affects natives everywhere not just one group. Then on top of that its like stating its a must-have into something that came up again. For example even most don't know things that could hurt them especially sense one man even moses can't be there to baby sit especially everyone even though moses had a pretty good idea of what happened in the worshipping of things the minoan island the blew up the first cases of diseases or the skin. I believe he probably did have speech impediment more than likely because multiplies even poor people under it. Or it can be like a chant for it sometimes. So while some invented a wheel sense the times of noah some where out trying to make a different type of wheel but control people is what it means sometimes. Jesus spent 40 days out there because there is that kind thing that holds be people or pulls people away even from common sense or even emotion common sense jolting worest because its like a pacifing into a bad area or an aggression. It can take even a serious toll on male and female and bring up civil battle or case.

 

[MJFlores]

I know but that's not what I meant its like when your using scripture or something affects natives everywhere not just one group. Then on top of that its like stating its a must-have into something that came up again. For example even most don't know things that could hurt them especially sense one man even moses can't be there to baby sit especially everyone even though moses had a pretty good idea of what happened in the worshipping of things the minoan island the blew up the first cases of diseases or the skin. I believe he probably did have speech impediment more than likely because multiplies even poor people under it. Or it can be like a chant for it sometimes. So while some invented a wheel sense the times of noah some where out trying to make a different type of wheel but control people is what it means sometimes. Jesus spent 40 days out there because there is that kind thing that hold be people or pull people away even from common sense because its like a pacifing into a bad area or an aggression. It can take even a serious toll on male and female and bring up civil battles or case.

Hehehe!

Minoan? - I still have to research on this.

Your profile pic is still tilted.

 

[shmogie]

Wonderful, wonderful post, imo.
I have never, ever, trusted Paul!

A 'thing' about Paul..... he lived into his 60's, I reckon, but never married. For a Jew to not marry at all, ever, may well have indicated tghat sexually something was different, somewhere, somehow. As read Paul's rants about homesexuality I am constantly reminded by Shakespeare's beautiful comment (in a play) ...
'Methinks he doth protest too much!'

Oh please what utter pap, Paul most likely was married, most Biblical scholars believe he was or had been. You apparently have never read his references re homosexuality I suggest you do so before you make ignorant statements.

 

[shmogie]

I cannot find a straight listing which clearly shows 'the Royal laws' or 'Christ's Laws' at this time.

I want to find that list.

What is confusing me is that ... all my life Christuians have quoted the old laws, such as the ten commandments, and now 'm being told that these were 'repealed' with the new-covenant.

The thing is, that I cannot see how Jesus built any large list at all....... he might have founded half a dozen ....?

It seems as if Christian law is built upon the visions of several Christian Prophets, Paul, Cephas, Silas and Judas being four of them?

9 of the 10 commandments written on stone, part of the Torah are reiterated in the NT. That is why you have heard about them. All that is compelled in the NT is required. In criminal law, when a new statute is promulgated, it may have components of a previous statute, nevertheless it is a new statute. The entire Torah was fulfilled for all people.