Christians, how does God demonstrate he "loves us", without referencing a human sacrifice...

[Unveiled Artist]

According to the Exodus story ALL the Israelites that left Egypt perished in the desert! All 2,000,000 + of them, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. You can't make this stuff up! Almost nobody reads the bible. They are told stories that are cherry picked. Almost no one reads the bible for themselves. Of the ones that do read the bible they are most likely using or following a study guide so they reconstruct the events to maintain either their "Statement of Faith" or some particular doctrine. Anyone that sets out to critically read the bible for themselves will be shocked at the absurdity, cruelty, injustice and contradictions.

I read the Bible. That's why I'm not Christian.

A part from that, just reading scripture alone, the only people who died during that time period of Exodus and Ithink it goes into Leviticus is when the Isrealites were slaughtering men, women, and children for their promise land. If they died in the desert, the rest of the bible would be mute. Jesus wouldn't have a geneology. Gosh, that just takes out half the Bible there.

I haven't read any outside Christian history other than about the Church since I was a part of it. I forgot a lot of Church history; I dont care to remember the deaths of people suffered by the Church in which I immaturely chose to take sacraments in.

That aside, though, even if you are right, do you not agree that giving food to your children is giving life? Wouldn't that be an act of love no matter if you are right or wrong about whatever you posted?

 

[Ingledsva]

You pointed out...How about the Mana (bread/life) he gave to the Isrealites (I think Genesis or Exodus)?

I have thought about this one and don't think this qualifies as a demonstration of love. Think of the WWII POW's in Japanese prisons. They were fed. The Hebrews were God's prisoners in the desert! But thank the god that doesn't actually exist, the Exodus story was fiction, throuth and through.This is one of the best cases of "ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE". You could extrapolate around 2 million people from the biblical account wandered the desert for 40 years and left no trace. The line of Hebrews walking 5 abreast and 6' apart would have been 4 million miles long. That's enough to circle the sun like the earth.

Imagine the size of the piles of poop, discarded broken objects, bones, etc., that would have to be there if it actually took place.

Also there would be Egyptian references to such an event, and descriptions from other people as well, if a group that large moved across that small area. Besides which, it actually names some places they stopped, so that kind of puts the kibosh on the aimlessly wandering around a dessert for forty years story.

Obviously it didn't happen.

*

 

[Neo Deist]

Thanks for the reply! However, I should have clarified...."in the bible". I don't care about personal, anecdotal evidence. If that kind of evidence was worth anything then I'll be selling shares on the 100 pound diamond that I believe is buried in my backyard.

That is in the Bible...you just have to know where to look.

 

[Lyndon]

You pointed out...How about the Mana (bread/life) he gave to the Isrealites (I think Genesis or Exodus)?

I have thought about this one and don't think this qualifies as a demonstration of love. Think of the WWII POW's in Japanese prisons. They were fed. The Hebrews were God's prisoners in the desert! But thank the god that doesn't actually exist, the Exodus story was fiction, throuth and through.This is one of the best cases of "ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE". You could extrapolate around 2 million people from the biblical account wandered the desert for 40 years and left no trace. The line of Hebrews walking 5 abreast and 6' apart would have been 4 million miles long. That's enough to circle the sun like the earth.

You flunked math, didn't you??? The correct answer would be roughly 500 miles not 4 million, you may have been confusing feet with miles. And the distance for the earth to circle the sun is 260 million miles, not 4 million. Where do you get this math, is this what the public schools are teaching???

 

[rusra02]

Christians, can you reference the bible and demonstrate how God "loves us", without referencing: 1) human sacrifice or, 2) some bible character that just claims God loves us?
What did God ever do that really proves or demonstrates his love. I have been unable to find a single act of love that didn't refer to a human sacrifice or someone just saying that God loves us. I'm not talking about Jesus but the God Jesus prayed to.

"that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

"the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them. In past generations he permitted all the nations to go on in their ways, although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness." (Acts 14:15-17)

"so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children." (Acts 17:27,28)

 

[Quetzal]

We are on his Christmas list.

Hey... I never got a card.

 

[roger1440]

Hey... I never got a card.

I guess you didn't make the cut

 

[Jumi]

e someone brings up the suffering Jesus went through I am forced to think of this little girl. I know she was not a christian, and according to modern theology, not only did she endure the agony of being ripped apart and eaten alive, she will also burn in hell for all eternity.

If that's from the Ethiopian famine then I think she was "Christian". Ethiopia(and Armenia) were first countries to convert to Christianity, centuries earlier than the "Romans".

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Love requires sacrifice. If you had tickets to some big sports game that you have been planning for months, but your spouse was sick on that day and you chose to stay home and care for them, is that not sacrifice on your part because you love them? You cannot love someone and not sacrifice in some way daily for them. I am a single father. I have a 15 year old daughter, and have been a single father for 13 years. I have sacrificed much for my daughter, and she has sacrificed much for me. Sacrifice is nothing more than putting others before yourself, not just dying for others.

So to ask for references from the Bible to show how God loves us without sacrifice is impossible.

Deu 30:15-20 (ESVST) 15 " See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I am a master wood worker and I create one of a kind stuff all the time. I like building things but that doesn't lead to I "loving" my rocking chair.

How can you compare a piece of wood with a human being?

 

[idea]

I don't think anyone I know does something "to show me they love me". Love is an emotion. Love is the result of chemical actions in the brain and is a natural process. It is probably the most exhilarating of all human emotions and is responsible for keeping the human species alive and reproducing. It is necessary to have a brain to experience love. I don't believe God loves us because he's brainless. He lacks the need and evolution necessary to reproduce.

Awww.... so this is the issue. You don't understand what love is, you only know ἔρως - érōs perhaps? There has also been discussion on this thread of στοργή storgē (parent/child), there is also φιλία - philía - friendship between equals, but these are not the types of love that God has - ἀγάπη agape - Do you believe that agape is real? It sounds like you do not believe that this type of love can be real. You see the world as a cruel heartless selfish place perhaps? and you are right, there are many horrible things in this world. Might I suggest something - and I am not trying to be cynical here, there are many people who do not believe that agape is real (and therefore are unable to believe in God as well) - here is the suggestion "be the change you want to see in the world" ... It is only when you decide to show agape love towards another (even if you believe they might not show it back to you etc.) that you will come to understand what it is. agape becomes real when you make it real - you make it real when you show agape to others... If you believe that agape cannot exist, it is only because you refuse to allow it to exist within yourself.... and this will separate you from knowing others, and from God... (1 John 4:8)

Oh... my church does not condemn anyone to hell, we perform baptisms for the dead for the salvation of all.... in this life we gain the knowledge of good and evil, but this life is a mere drop in the sea of infinity.

 

[OnePointSix18]

I read the Bible. That's why I'm not Christian.

A part from that, just reading scripture alone, the only people who died during that time period of Exodus and Ithink it goes into Leviticus is when the Isrealites were slaughtering men, women, and children for their promise land. If they died in the desert, the rest of the bible would be mute. Jesus wouldn't have a geneology. Gosh, that just takes out half the Bible there.

I haven't read any outside Christian history other than about the Church since I was a part of it. I forgot a lot of Church history; I dont care to remember the deaths of people suffered by the Church in which I immaturely chose to take sacraments in.

That aside, though, even if you are right, do you not agree that giving food to your children is giving life? Wouldn't that be an act of love no matter if you are right or wrong about whatever you posted?

Someone can give food to someone because of love but you and I give food to folks every day, through taxes, and I know I didn't do it with love. I've also given money to people with cardboard signs that say, will work for food. I didn't love them. I was merely sympathetic and empathetic. The jailer feeds the prisoners. Does he love them? Where did the food come from? Taxes. Does feeding require love? Also you need to look at Numbers 32:11-12. Every single Israelite that left Egypt in the Exodus either died at the hand of Moses, or died in the desert. No one that left Egypt with Moses made it to the Promised Land except Caleb and Joshua. If you think about a bleak life in slavery would have been bad I think death in the desert wouldn't have been much better. Even though they may have been fed just think of the water needed for 3,000,000 people on the move. The city of Philadelphia is comparable and they need 250,000,000 gallons a day. The rock Moses struck needed to ooze 173,000 gph or 1 olympic swimming pool every hour, every day, in the desert!

Back to looking for biblical support that demonstrates God's love, the feeding of the Israelites could just as easily been explained as a covenant binding necessity, and God painting himself in a corner. Not all the Israelites died in the desert. Just the ones that left Egypt for the Promised Land flowing with milk and honey, a place denied all except two.

 

[Skwim]

He saved eight of our ancestors on a big boat instead of letting them drown with everyone else. That was pretty darn nice of him.

God created us and instead of making us automatons, He gave us free will. We make our own choices. If you love someone, set them free...

Actually, there's no such thing as free will, so there's no such thing as setting anyone free. However, this is a point for some other thread, not this one.

 

[OnePointSix18]

You flunked math, didn't you??? The correct answer would be roughly 500 miles not 4 million, you may have been confusing feet with miles. And the distance for the earth to circle the sun is 260 million miles, not 4 million. Where do you get this math, is this what the public schools are teaching???

Congratulations, you are the first to correct my crazy math! Thanks for reading my post and responding, was hoping a Christian would notice What do you think about the crazy long line of Hebrews? The line would actually be 75 miles longer than the distance between Cairo and Jerusalem. You easily saw the absurdity of my math, does your sharp eye also see the absurdity in the Exodus story? Modern theology is finally beginning to recognize the story for what it is, allegorical fiction. Also when we apply our critical thinking to the facts having acknowledged the story as fiction we must abandon all claims of fact related to characters, plot development, and events. We must throw out the big things like Moses receiving the 10 commandments and all the storybook battles, which the biblical accounts also fail to correspond to known history and archeology. Am I right? Are Christians able to meet truth head on and accept it?

 

[Lyndon]

No serious scholars think there were 2 million people in the desert. You're the one with faith in the Biblical narrative not me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Someone can give food to someone because of love but you and I give food to folks every day, through taxes, and I know I didn't do it with love. I've also given money to people with cardboard signs that say, will work for food. I didn't love them. I was merely sympathetic and empathetic. The jailer feeds the prisoners. Does he love them? Where did the food come from? Taxes. Does feeding require love? Also you need to look at Numbers 32:11-12. Every single Israelite that left Egypt in the Exodus either died at the hand of Moses, or died in the desert. No one that left Egypt with Moses made it to the Promised Land except Caleb and Joshua. If you think about a bleak life in slavery would have been bad I think death in the desert wouldn't have been much better. Even though they may have been fed just think of the water needed for 3,000,000 people on the move. The city of Philadelphia is comparable and they need 250,000,000 gallons a day. The rock Moses struck needed to ooze 173,000 gph or 1 olympic swimming pool every hour, every day, in the desert!

Back to looking for biblical support that demonstrates God's love, the feeding of the Israelites could just as easily been explained as a covenant binding necessity, and God painting himself in a corner. Not all the Israelites died in the desert. Just the ones that left Egypt for the Promised Land flowing with milk and honey, a place denied all except two.

Giving food should be an act of love. We are giving other people a way to survive. Regardless if its for marketing or empathy, that doesnt excuse "the act of giving life."

I dont need to love a prisioner to show an act of love if he is without food. I wouldnt do it out of sympathy. I just know, no matter how " I " feel and view it, he is receiving food; that is love.

People abuse this act by gaining money off of it not to help the better needs of society but to tax them (and so forth). It makes it look like there is no lovee by giving because people are abusing or taking advantage of that gratitude. Greed.

Kind of like: I dont have to be a christian to pray to god for you. If god is real, my disbelief doesnt change he is not. God can answer my prayers regardless of how I see it. In his analogy, my prayer and answering it is love.

Its not about me.

I would extend that when Abraham was telling god to spare the good people in Gammurah and God did, that decision, I feel, is love.

Love: to not kill.

What i dont care for is why didnt he spare others. Love is not picky. It shouldnt be anyway.

 

[InChrist]

Christians, can you reference the bible and demonstrate how God "loves us", without referencing: 1) human sacrifice or, 2) some bible character that just claims God loves us?
What did God ever do that really proves or demonstrates his love. I have been unable to find a single act of love that didn't refer to a human sacrifice or someone just saying that God loves us. I'm not talking about Jesus but the God Jesus prayed to.

I believe that the scriptures reveal the eternal relationship of love which has always existed between the three Persons of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit....never having been apart. So the separation and death on the cross of the Son from His beloved Father and the Holy Spirit was an incredibly painful sacrifice on the part of the eternal triune God for love of humanity. More than the physical pain which Jesus, the Son, suffered on the cross was the excruciating pain of separation which had never before in all of eternity occurred between or within the eternal Being of the God of Love. Yet, this great sacrifice was made as God bore such great pain within Himself to demonstrate His incredible love for humanity.

 

[OnePointSix18]

Awww.... so this is the issue. You don't understand what love is, you only know ἔρως - érōs perhaps? There has also been discussion on this thread of στοργή storgē (parent/child), there is also φιλία - philía - friendship between equals, but these are not the types of love that God has - ἀγάπη agape - Do you believe that agape is real? It sounds like you do not believe that this type of love can be real. You see the world as a cruel heartless selfish place perhaps? and you are right, there are many horrible things in this world. Might I suggest something - and I am not trying to be cynical here, there are many people who do not believe that agape is real (and therefore are unable to believe in God as well) - here is the suggestion "be the change you want to see in the world" ... It is only when you decide to show agape love towards another (even if you believe they might not show it back to you etc.) that you will come to understand what it is. agape becomes real when you make it real - you make it real when you show agape to others... If you believe that agape cannot exist, it is only because you refuse to allow it to exist within yourself.... and this will separate you from knowing others, and from God... (1 John 4:8)

Oh... my church does not condemn anyone to hell, we perform baptisms for the dead for the salvation of all.... in this life we gain the knowledge of good and evil, but this life is a mere drop in the sea of infinity.

I used the type of love that is usually most emotionally charged in order to make my point. If by agape you mean to give of yourself unconditionally, then that would describe my acts of kindness such as giving money to the hungry. When I said, "I don't think anyone I know does something to show me they love me", that is to say the people that love me do so because they love me and they "do not do it to show me". The love genuinely, without pretense, you know, like agape and philia. The greek philosophers referred to agape as (wikipedia) Agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one's children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast. It also describes it as brotherly love and finally the love from god to man and man to god. Agape was adopted by the NT because of the writers Greek background and Agape is not used in the OT. The OT used the Hebrew word hesed (checed), which in our English translations is usually rendered as "love".
All the above to answer your question: "Do you believe that agape is real?". The answer is that I know and have seen people do brotherly acts of love, I have an open ended and unconditional love for my children. Agape exists but not like a bucket of paint. It's like a map. A map of the US exists but the map is not the US. People's feelings and emotions exist but you can't fill a bucket with them.

Care to weigh in on the thread topic?

No serious scholars think there were 2 million people in the desert. You're the one with faith in the Biblical narrative not me.

How many were there? The bible says 600,000 men of fighting age + their families + livestock. Do you agree with me and modern theological scholarship that it was all fiction? Are we are just quibbling over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[OnePointSix18]

I believe that the scriptures reveal the eternal relationship of love which has always existed between the three Persons of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit....never having been apart. So the separation and death on the cross of the Son from His beloved Father and the Holy Spirit was an incredibly painful sacrifice on the part of the eternal triune God for love of humanity. More than the physical pain which Jesus, the Son, suffered on the cross was the excruciating pain of separation which had never before in all of eternity occurred between or within the eternal Being of the God of Love. Yet, this great sacrifice was made as God bore such great pain within Himself to demonstrate His incredible love for humanity.

Doggonit! Anytime someone tells me about the day and a half of suffering Jesus went through around 2000 years ago I always think about this starving little girl. She was so weak from hunger that she could not crawl away. She was not a Christian and after the vultures ripped her little body to shreds and ate her alive, she is punished in hell and will burn for ever and ever and ever....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doggonit! Anytime someone tells me about the day and a half of suffering Jesus went through around 2000 years ago I always think about this starving little girl. She was so weak from hunger that she could not crawl away. She was not a Christian and after the vultures ripped her little body to shreds and ate her alive, she is punished in hell and will burn for ever and ever and ever....

I hate to add to this and you have a good point.

What if the girl, before the vultures ate her, said "this is my time to go. Its not say." and they eat her up. Then, because she is a vhild (innocent), wise for her age, and did not "fight back" we should be like that child.
-
Then I thought while I was looking at the crucifix: webare worshiping the "death" of Jesus so we an have life through his death and resurrection. Im....and it dawned on me....Im using the guy.

Thats like my using that child to save myself. Why would I do that? Thats horrible. Its not about my salvation. Its about the child.

In my faith, Buddha would go nuts!