Christianity vs Baha'i

[CG Didymus]

Still amazes me that Christians believe that Jesus is going to be the End Times Messiah, because given Jesus did not have a human father, it cannot be said He was from the line of David.

Yeah, it's terrible how some religious people twist things to make their prophet fit some prophecy.

 

[Skywalker]

While I'm not going to go through the context of each verse, but I will make the assumption that it is way to general and doesn't fit the context. But I don't want to go through all the trouble to show that the context talks about something completely different just to have the Baha'i not care about what the context says or finds a way to twist it to fit. Like making an earthquake in Portugal several decades before the declaration of The Bab means that a prophecy was fulfilled.

What about Bab not returning in 1844?

 

[CG Didymus]

The second coming is taught in the Bible, because it matches the prophecies about the resurrection of the Messiah. Why would there be two Messiahs? The idea of a suffering servant and a king Messiah doesn't sound like its talking about the same coming of the Messiah.

I'm catching up. I'm reading this on page 48. But, in case you didn't know, Baha'is have Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah all as "Messiahs" or their word, "manifestation" of God coming after Jesus. With Baha'u'llah being "The Messiah".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mary's father Eli was a direct descendant of King David.

"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli" Luke 3:23

Are you talking about Heli in Luke 3:23?

But seems to me, Heli was father of Joseph, who was Mary's husband.

How do we know Heli was Mary's father?

 

[CG Didymus]

What about Bab not returning in 1844?

The Bab declared himself in 1844. Bill Sears wrote a book in which he finds all kinds of prophecies fulfilled that show The Bab and Baha'u'llah were predicted in the Bible. So he has a "dark day", "stars falling", and a "great earthquake" all happening before The Bab declared in 1844. But all those things happened no where near Persis and no where near the year he declared.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm catching up. I'm reading this on page 48. But, in case you didn't know, Baha'is have Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah all as "Messiahs" or their word, "manifestation" of God coming after Jesus. With Baha'u'llah being "The Messiah".

There is more evidence that Deuteronomy refers to Jesus, not Mohammed.

 

[Skywalker]

The Bab declared himself in 1844. Bill Sears wrote a book in which he finds all kinds of prophecies fulfilled that show The Bab and Baha'u'llah were predicted in the Bible. So he has a "dark day", "stars falling", and a "great earthquake" all happening before The Bab declared in 1844. But all those things happened no where near Persis and no where near the year he declared.

If they were predicted in the Bible what about Jesus? It sounds like the Bab is a replacement of Jesus being the Savior, similar to how people use Santa as a replacement of Jesus. Anyone can guess of dark day and stars falling and earthquakes before a future date. It doesn't mean that the Bab fulfiled those prophecies.

 

[Skywalker]

"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli" Luke 3:23

Are you talking about Heli in Luke 3:23?

But seems to me, Heli was father of Joseph, who was Mary's husband.

How do we know Heli was Mary's father?

Heli and Eli are two different people.

 

[CG Didymus]

Please explain why you think they are taken out of context. What exactly does that mean?

You are correct that Jews, Christians and Muslims all say something different about what prophecy verses mean, and they do not even agree with others in the same religion. The hundred-dollar difference and the obvious advantage Baha'is have over any of the other religions is that we have an actual man who has come and fulfilled those prophecies whereas all they have is what they believe those prophecies mean.

Just read the Two Witnesses and the Three Woes and tell me that the context fits Muhammad and Ali, and the other fits Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. If you believe it, fine. I don't.

 

[Skywalker]

Just read the Two Witnesses and the Three Woes and tell me that the context fits Muhammad and Ali, and the other fits Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. If you believe it, fine. I don't.

Prophecies that people say are about Mohammad are actually about Jesus. Christians believe Jesus is God, not a prophet of God, but since Jesus has the offices of Prophet, Priest, and King, it makes sense that a prophet like unto Moses is a reference to Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

How is that possible, given Jesus said the following?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is the Bible incorrect? If so, the rest of the Bible cannot be trusted to be correct.

Yes, you and I have both pointed out incorrect things in the Bible. And again, and again, and again... Now with... "the world seeth me no more" and the rest of your quotes, all from John, those, out of all the Bible, those you take literally? But later, where it says Jesus came back to life, that you don't take literally? Please, be consistent. Everybody takes the Bible any way they want to... to prove their point and their religion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Heli and Eli are two different people.

I looked at Wikipedia,it says Mary's parents are unknown. They are not mentioned in the 4 gospels.

But it says

According to the apocryphal Gospel of James, Mary was the daughter of Saint Joachim and Saint Anne.

Wikipedia

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, you and I have both pointed out incorrect things in the Bible. And again, and again, and again... Now with... "the world seeth me no more" and the rest of your quotes, all from John, those, out of all the Bible, those you take literally? But later, where it says Jesus came back to life, that you don't take literally? Please, be consistent. Everybody takes the Bible any way they want to... to prove their point and their religion.

I agree with you. I believe that Judaism interprets prophecies of the Messiah to view him as a political leader and not as God and a Savior because its more convenient than admitting one has a sin problem and needs God's help. People wanna be their own god and religious rituals fit our prideful nature.

 

[CG Didymus]

My understanding is, nothing physically happened at all. There was no sound, no fire, no nothing. This day Just symbolizes an event. It was possibly a gathering. But it all means, this gathering was a point, when they started to became more inspired and were able to speak different languages. By different languages is not necessarily meant, speaking Arabic, Spanish, and English, etc. It means they learned how to speak with people in the level of their understanding, and in ways, they can explain the truth to people who had different beliefs and understandings.

It is like today if there is a man who speaks English, but you don't understand each other's language, even though you both speak English. But you become enabled to teach and explain the truth in ways that he can understand. It can be said, you learned his language.

Well, too bad God had these people write things the way they did. They made poor Christians today think the Holy Spirit came down and lives inside them. And the languages? Again God had Luke say that it was different known languages and the people understood them in their own language. You know, one of those miracles things that the NT is known for, but many people think is all made up stories.

 

[Skywalker]

I looked at Wikipedia,it says Mary's parents are unknown. They are not mentioned in the 4 gospels.

But it says

According to the apocryphal Gospel of James, Mary was the daughter of Saint Joachim and Saint Anne.

Wikipedia

the gospel of James takes Jesus from being a Savior to being a guru. Its people interpreting the Bible to fit their lifestyle.

 

[Skywalker]

Well, too bad God had these people write things the way they did. They made poor Christians today think the Holy Spirit came down and lives inside them. And the languages? Again God had Luke say that it was different known languages and the people understood them in their own language. You know, one of those miracles things that the NT is known for, but many people think is all made up stories.

Tongues was a reference to languages, not gibberish. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[CG Didymus]

We cannot prove that Bahaullah was descendant of Jesse. However, even before Bahaullah claimed that He is a Manifestation of God, His family from His father's side was known to be a descendant of Israelite kings. So, this is an evidence.

If you say so. But why the need to say so? Only to make Baha'u'llah descendant of Jesse? Was he also a descendant of Krishna? Because the prophecies about the Kalki Avatar tells where and to whom Kalki will be born. And I wouldn't doubt that there is some connection back to Krishna. And that's the difficulty. Baha'is take so many things symbolically, yet with some things, like being a descendant of Jesse, the Baha'is take literal.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was saying, if Abdulbaha was making up interpretations to match them with Bahai history, He must have spent a lot of time, going through the whole Bible verse by verse, and in every verse, thinking how He could possibly match this verse, with something related to history of Bahai Faith and the Bab and Bahaullah. Considering there are about 31,000 verses in Bible, He must have spent a lot of time by Himself, and thinking which ones are possibly prophecies and how He could match them in the favour of the Bab and Bahaullah.
Considering that Abdulbaha was born in a Muslim country where they dont learn Bible, and considering that Abdulbaha was in prison and exile since He Was 9 years old, and that no one ever saw Him studying Bible, doesnt that make you curious when and where He was spending time to come up with these interpretations?
In those days there were no internet or computer He could have used for searching through Bible, and checking cross references, and seeing how scholars interpreted verses.

and You were saying, Abdulbaha did not give an interpretation of all verses and passages of the Revelations of John, and thus He did not do a good job.

Okay, forget Abdul Baha for a minute... back to where Muhammad got the story about the clay birds that Jesus made come to life. Where did he get that story? Because it is in the Quran, do Baha'is believe it literally happened? Or, like me, do you think he got it from an apocryphal Christian story?

 

[Skywalker]

If you say so. But why the need to say so? Only to make Baha'u'llah descendant of Jesse? Was he also a descendant of Krishna? Because the prophecies about the Kalki Avatar tells where and to whom Kalki will be born. And I wouldn't doubt that there is some connection back to Krishna. And that's the difficulty. Baha'is take so many things symbolically, yet with some things, like being a descendant of Jesse, the Baha'is take literal.

What you said sounds like Baha'u'llah is a replacement of Jesus, because Jesus is a descendant of Jesse.

 

[CG Didymus]

Speaking in tongues is quite common amongst Pentecostal Christians. In smaller meetings, a message given in tongues is sometimes interpreted for the congregation, but on most occasions tongues is used in private prayer. Sometimes you'll find a congregation singing in tongues, but the singing is not in a recognisable language.

The purpose of tongues is the glorification of God. Tongues better express the heart of a believer than normal language is able to do.

Prophecy, which today usually consists in words of edification, also play a part in meetings.

Pentecostal Christians believe in the whole range of fruits [Galatians 5:22,23] and manifestations of the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 12:7-11].

Paul has a lot to say about the gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 to 14. He ends up by saying, 'Let all things be done decently and in order', knowing that excitement and ill-discipline can undermine a fellowship of believers. As we know from the day of Pentecost, believers in an excited state can appear drunk.

There is no question that believers were congregated together on the night before Pentecost, because this is the traditional Jewish practice at Shavuot. Jews spend the night praying and giving thanks for the giving of the Law at Sinai. It is not a coincidence that this night was chosen by God to send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the law written on the heart!

Again, in context, whether true or not is a different question, the NT says that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter and came on Pentecost. Baha'is don't go by context, though. But by taking a piece here and a piece there make a pretty good argument that their guy is the return of Christ. All they have to do is ignore, reinterpret or someway downplay any verse that makes Jesus the guy returning.