Christianity vs Baha'i

[Redemptionsong]

Well said, my same motivation, thus the quandary.

All the best to you. Thanks for the chat, but must dust off the sandals and move on.

Regards Tony

Thanks for the chat. All the best.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's the repeated words of scripture that convince all Christians that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Read some of them for yourself: 'And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)' [Luke 2:4]

Here we have a statement in plain language. No metaphors, only a literal account of events. If you want to look up these places on a map, you can. If you want to visit Nazareth and Bethlehem today, you can!

'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord'. [Luke 2:11]

Ok, agreed. According to scriptures Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Then how do you explain, that according to OT, Messiah would be out of Jesse? Jesus did not have human father.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Baha'u'llah had a birth on earth, whilst the second coming is from heaven.
.

Jesus had also come down from heaven though outwardly He was born from the womb of His mother.
Bahaullah also said He came down from Heaven, just as He had come down from Heaven the first time:


"O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof.... "
Bahaullah, Tablet to the Pop

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86


".....O followers of the Son! ....We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. "

Bahaullah, Tablet to the Christians
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17

 

[Skywalker]

Ok, agreed. According to scriptures Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
Then how do you explain, that according to OT, Messiah would be out of Jesse? Jesus did not have human father.

Jesus was related to Jesse from Mary's side of the family.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Jesus was related to Jesse from Mary's side of the family.

Can you Please quote from the Bible, where it says Jesus was descendant of Jesse through Mary?

 

[Skywalker]

Can you Please quote from the Bible, where it says Jesus was descendant of Jesse through Mary?

Mary was also descended from David, not just Joseph.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mary was also descended from David, not just Joseph.

Are there verses in Bible that support this?

 

[Skywalker]

Are there verses in Bible that support this?

Luke mentioned the genealogy of Mary.

 

[Skywalker]

Are there verses in Bible that support this?

Mary's father Eli was a direct descendant of King David.

 

[CG Didymus]

From the time Juressalem was trodden under feet of Gentile till its end, there are 1260 years.
The time Juressalem started to be under the feet, happens to be the year, the Islamic calendar begins.

This prophecy by itself was a thread.

solving the Puzzle: Jerusalem under feet of Genetiles

Daniel 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

You start at what you think is the end of the 2300 days/years, 1844. Then subtract those years to get to 457BC. Totally out of context of anything. The goat is the one that takes away the daily sacrifice and so on. Later in Daniel 8 says the goat is the King of Greece and explains who the different goat horns are. The commentaries say this is about Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanes. Why do you disagree?

 

[Skywalker]

Daniel 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

You start at what you think is the end of the 2300 days/years, 1844. Then subtract those years to get to 457BC. Totally out of context of anything. The goat is the one that takes away the daily sacrifice and so on. Later in Daniel 8 says the goat is the King of Greece and explains who the different goat horns are. The commentaries say this is about Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanes. Why do you disagree?

Do you think little horn in Daniel is a reference to Alexander the Great?

 

[CG Didymus]

You won't see that in your lifetime. That is a long way off, so why focus on the future?

Same question I've been asking... where does it say The Messiah will come, but not establish peace?

The Baha'is are never planning to rule over anyone...

And where does it say The Messiah will come and not rule over all the Earth? If "God's" laws, the Baha'i laws, are not for everybody, and not enforced over everybody, then what good are they going to be in bringing peace?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, there are no verses that say "Satan exists." That was just an assumption made by Christians, because they interpreted the verses literally instead of figuratively.

Are there verses in the Bible that say that Adam existed? Or Moses? Or Jesus? Or God? If so, which verses are you using that show that they existed?

Those verses are all throughout the Bible.

Hmmm? But nothing about Satan? I swear I saw his name mentioned somewhere?

There is plenty about Satan, but what it actually means is another matter altogether.

Yes, there are verses. But Satan, to Baha'is, doesn't exist, but someone like Adam does? Or, that other invisible spirit being God? God does exist? But not as the anthropomorphized being that the Bible makes him out to be?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Daniel 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 It came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at it in great rage. 7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

You start at what you think is the end of the 2300 days/years, 1844. Then subtract those years to get to 457BC. Totally out of context of anything. The goat is the one that takes away the daily sacrifice and so on. Later in Daniel 8 says the goat is the King of Greece and explains who the different goat horns are. The commentaries say this is about Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanes. Why do you disagree?

Very simple. The beginning of this prophecy, is third edict, the year 457BC

 

[Skywalker]

Same question I've been asking... where does it say The Messiah will come, but not establish peace?

And where does it say The Messiah will come and not rule over all the Earth? If "God's" laws, the Baha'i laws, are not for everybody, and not enforced over everybody, then what good are they going to be in bringing peace?

Jesus told the apostle Peter at the end of the Gospel of John that he was going to come back. The Messiah came and not rule over all the earth in his first advent. Jesus brought peace on earth, meaning peace with God, peace knowing that hell is not our destination. The doctrine of the second coming resolves some of the apparently self contradictory details in the Old Testament about the Messiah and it doesn't contradict the Old Testament. The Messiahs first coming was to suffer, and his second coming will be to reign.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, there are verses. But Satan, to Baha'is, doesn't exist, but someone like Adam does? Or, that other invisible spirit being God? God does exist? But not as the anthropomorphized being that the Bible makes him out to be?

Why do you think Satan doesn't exist? If there is good, there is evil. How does the Bible anthropomorphize God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Same question I've been asking... where does it say The Messiah will come, but not establish peace?

Where does the Bible say that the Messiah will come and establish peace himself?

And where does it say The Messiah will come and not rule over all the Earth? If "God's" laws, the Baha'i laws, are not for everybody, and not enforced over everybody, then what good are they going to be in bringing peace?

Where does the Bible say the Messiah will come and rule over all the Earth?

Everyone following the Baha'i Laws is not necessary to bring peace. More people following the counsels of Baha'u'llah is what is needed in order for that to transpire.

“The One true God beareth Me witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[CG Didymus]

True, that is one change we see as humanity and the world evolves over time, so in order to accommodate changes in humanity and the world each Manifestation brought higher levels of societal units.

I don't see it. Large cities and great empires go way, way back.

The nation-state developed fairly recently. Prior to the 1500s, in Europe, the nation-state as we know it did not exist. Back then, most people did not consider themselves part of a nation; they rarely left their village and knew little of the larger world. If anything, people were more likely to identify themselves with their region or local lord.​

If this is anywhere close to being correct then nation/states happened long after and way before any manifestation.

 

[Skywalker]

Where does the Bible say that the Messiah will come and establish peace himself?

Where does the Bible say the Messiah will come and rule over all the Earth?

Everyone following the Baha'i Laws is not necessary to bring peace. More people following the counsels of Baha'u'llah is what is needed in order for that to transpire.

“The One true God beareth Me witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

The second coming is taught in the Bible, because it matches the prophecies about the resurrection of the Messiah. Why would there be two Messiahs? The idea of a suffering servant and a king Messiah doesn't sound like its talking about the same coming of the Messiah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is do not have Baha'u'llah coming from anywhere that He did not come from or going anywhere He did not go to, which perfectly aligns with the prophecies, as Sears proved. Baha'is do not have to MAKE anything into a fulfillment because Baha'u'llah did exactly what the prophecies say the Messiah and return of Christ would do.

While I'm not going to go through the context of each verse, but I will make the assumption that it is way to general and doesn't fit the context. But I don't want to go through all the trouble to show that the context talks about something completely different just to have the Baha'i not care about what the context says or finds a way to twist it to fit. Like making an earthquake in Portugal several decades before the declaration of The Bab means that a prophecy was fulfilled.