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Christianity and Islam -What's to Like?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I really don't get it.

- god and allah are both depicted as egotistical, vindictive and endlessly cruel.
- There is more immorality in Abrahamic scripture than there is good morality.
- Both religions are endlessly used as an excuse for war.
- Clergymen are often poor role models.
- The majority of the faithful remain financially poor.

Where is the "good stuff" ? Seriously.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Those who don't brook the system will eventually win big time? (It's thin gruel that is not supported by any kind of evidence, but alas, that's it.) "The meek shall inherit the earth."

I haven't found anything worthy of note in Islam, as of yet.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I really don't get it.

- god and allah are both depicted as egotistical, vindictive and endlessly cruel.
- There is more immorality in Abrahamic scripture than there is good morality.
- Both religions are endlessly used as an excuse for war.
- Clergymen are often poor role models.
- The majority of the faithful remain financially poor.

Where is the "good stuff" ? Seriously.

Considering how much they have in common, one might think they'd be best buds.

But even within both religions, they have different sects which are at odds with each other and sometimes take to fighting.

At least Christianity doesn't have as many restrictions on food or drink. I couldn't stand to live in a place where bacon or beer might be prohibited.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I really don't get it.

- god and allah are both depicted as egotistical, vindictive and endlessly cruel.
And the opposite as well depending on where you look and what exegesis you employ.

Christianity has the two greatest commandments - love and the Sermon on the Mount.

Islam has 99 names of God with merciful being the most often used in the Quran and most of the rest being the opposite of "egosticial, vindictive...".

- There is more immorality in Abrahamic scripture than there is good morality.
What is moral and how you measure it in various scripture is a complex question but simply I disagree with your assertion. Taking Islam, most Muslims consider Hadith to be part of their faith and thus to me scripture: Words Of Wisdom of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is a list of moral statements.
- Both religions are endlessly used as an excuse for war.
Yes as has been secular ideology. Anything which stirs up emotion can be used to get people fired up to fight.
- Clergymen are often poor role models.
Too often. But there are also examples of good role models. The clergy are human and subject to human failings. People become clergy for mixed motivations which comes out in their actions. I would say that the vast majority are ego motivated and are looking for egoic gratification and not motivated higher calling.
- The majority of the faithful remain financially poor.
I don't personally agree with prosperity theology but you seem to be saying that it's a measure of the validity of religion. I disagree with that assertion.
Where is the "good stuff" ? Seriously.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Christianity has the two greatest commandments - love and the Sermon on the Mount.

Which are a small part of the entire scripture.

Islam has 99 names of God with merciful being the most often used in the Quran and most of the rest being the opposite of "egosticial, vindictive...".

Yes, the Quran endlessly claims that allah is merciful - but those claims are never justified, and in fact the rest of the book demonstrates that he's the opposite of merciful.

What is moral and how you measure it in various scripture is a complex question but simply I disagree with your assertion. Taking Islam, most Muslims consider Hadith to be part of their faith and thus to me scripture: Words Of Wisdom of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is a list of moral statements.

To reiterate, I didn't say that there were no morally good ideas in the scripture. I said there was more immorality than morality. Notice that the list you linked to is tiny compared to the size of the Hadith - TINY.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Seems like people get pretty worked up defending a set of ideas that is so seldom "good stuff", why is that?
You should ask someone who does get so worked up about it, not me. And also ask why the other side gets so worked up at hearing anything positive about Jesus.

I try to see things in a balanced way.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You should ask someone who does get so worked up about it, not me. And also ask why the other side gets so worked up at hearing anything positive about Jesus.

I try to see things in a balanced way.

Well the OP IS an open question after all :)

I don't get worked up about anything positive from Jesus - it just doesn't seem that the press he gets warrants his sometimes good, but unoriginal message. It doesn't seem balanced
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Well the OP IS an open question after all :)

I don't get worked up about anything positive from Jesus - it just doesn't seem that the press he gets warrants his sometimes good, but unoriginal message. It doesn't seem balanced
I think balanced people see the separation between an example of good loving spirituality and man-made dogma. People need examples and teachers so I don't have a problem with the Jesus image. Loving spirituality is not original but it can sure use good examples.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
why omit Judaism?

oh I know why ...
Judaism is hardly as much of a concern, even potentially, as Christianity and above all Islam should be.

It is interesting to ask why. I am certain that the absence of active proselitism is one reason, and I strongly suspect that there is simply more of a tradition of respecting diversity of thought within the Jewish People.

I still wish I understood the reasons better.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I think balanced people see the separation between an example of good loving spirituality and man-made dogma. People need examples and teachers so I don't have a problem with the Jesus image. Loving spirituality is not original but it can sure use good examples.

And if there was a school class on good examples of moral teachings thru the ages, and the class included some of Jesus's greatest hits, and some of Lao Tzu's and some of Buddha's, and so on, then that would be great. I'd be a fan.

But typically religious people hold their religion above others and in isolation. So in the case of Jesus, Christians have to weigh the good with the bad, and the moral message gets muddier. So we're right back to square one - in the case of Jesus, what's to like? He said some good things (none of them original), and he said some bad things.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I don't know about good exactly, but they seem to be appealling to people who value a fast track towards a sense of common identity

Ah, that's an interesting angle. If I understand, you're saying that we have an innate need to be in a tribe, and these religions fulfill this need? If so, then we just need to increase the secular humanist marketing budget, and offer folks a more sustainable, inclusive, and healthy tribe to be a part of!
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
@icehorse, you complained that the hadith reference was TINY. Well, I would have recommended the over 100 pages of "The Wisdom of Muahmmad" published by Citadel press with a forward by Mahatma Gandhi but it's unfortunately out of print.

The OP seemed to ask a question which I answered. But really it was a statement in the form of a question.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, that's an interesting angle. If I understand, you're saying that we have an innate need to be in a tribe, and these religions fulfill this need? If so, then we just need to increase the secular humanist marketing budget, and offer folks a more sustainable, inclusive, and healthy tribe to be a part of!
Because Humanism is by definition individualistic. That's not what people want. Have you noticed that, in Christianity's collapsing state in the West, people are turning to Islam, not Humanism? The number of Jews becoming Haredi has skyrocketed.

People want to be told do this, do that. It's what life was like with our parents - when we were safe. We didn't need to choose how, what to eat, wear, watch, read or do. It was chosen for us. It's this kind of security people crave. There's only so much freedom a human can take until the responsibility and loneliness become too much.

In fact, now I recall, it's one of the four primary causes of an existential crisis:

"To be free means to be responsible for one’s life, the author of one’s own destiny. Because of the overwhelming seriousness and importance of this task, people frequently flee from freedom and hence the responsibility of determining one’s own path in life.

To the extent that one accepts their freedom, and thus the fact that one is responsible for one’s destiny, one is faced with the chilling realization that one is alone. Existential isolation, referring 'to an unbridgeable gulf between oneself and any other being', is another ultimate concern that each individual must come to terms with through the course of their psychological development."
 
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