Christianity... An issue,

[joeboonda]

Jesus paid for our sins, we accept that freely, and He begins to change us. But the Bible says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's eyes as far as salvation goes.

 

[Adstar]

Calivinism aside I still don't buy what you've said here. If god is omniscient and truly knows ahead of time what people will and ownt' choose and creates them anyways, knowing they have to go to hell it's still rather twisted.

So either god is NOT omniscient, maybe because free will is something he created and can't quite predict the outcome exactly every time

or

He IS omniscient and.....a little twisted.

Its not so much that God has to predict something, God has seen everything already.

It is as if God exists outside our physical universe and also our universe time. But He has the power to interact with it. God sees all our times in an instant. Most biblical prophesy is written in past tense, because the observer is seeing something that has already happen from the vantage point of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

JillianMarie77

There was a time when I said "so what if Joseph is a fake and liar, that doens't mean the church isnt' true!"

What Joseph are we discussing? Joseph the husband of mary or Joseph the one with the coat of many colours?

What leads you to believe that Joseph (either one) is a fake or a liar?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

If it is true that God is love (and I believe it is), then God desires relationship with us. God has saved us, and, I believe, that when we come to stand before the ultimate truth of God's unbounded love, we must wrestle with our own hearts in light of that love-judgment. And I believe that God will have patience, continuing to seek us until we are found, death notwithstanding. Someday, all of us will accept the truth that we all belong together.

From reading scriptures i cannot believe this. The time to accept God is now. It takes two to be in a loving relationship. Without our acceptance of a relationship with God there can be no relationship. The lake of fire is eternal and real for those who reject Gods love.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Tiberius]

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
Mark 16:16

I'm not going to judge you frg001. I'm just throwing that verse out there. The important question is "Do you think that you would go to Heaven assuming that God and Heaven are real?"

Moving on, I do think that someone like Moira Hindley would go to Heaven if she repented of her sins and accepted Christ, then followed God's word from there on. God will forgive all sins, no matter what they are. All you have to do is except him. And that's really what's wonderful about Christianity.

What about:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For you render to each one according to his works.

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This next passage has Jesus himself saying that the way to get into Heavemn is to make sure you don't murder, commit adultery, steal, lie, honour your parents, and be kind to people. Doesn't include anything about belief.

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

These passages tell us that our belief plays no part in whether we get sent to heaven or Hell. it is how we act that is important. As long as we are good people, we'll go to Heaven, according to these passages.

 

[DakotaGypsy]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

I once was chatting to an old work colleague, a very nice person, who unfortunately(in my eyes) had become a born again christian.
I asked him the question...
Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.
Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Please someone make sense of this.

Quite frankly, as an Atheist, I would express happiness that that particular person had found something that was spiritually meaningful to them and let it go at that. I would not question their belief system unless they said they had doubts, then I would advise them to consult their spiritual advisor in that particular belief system.

Most unfortunately, I would probably know more about their belief system than they do, and I hate it when people don't find out what it is that they're getting into and take some time to examine it carefully, and to know what it is really all about.

 

[Booko]

He is right, you will be sent to hell for your sins.
You can be forgiven because Jesus paid for your sins on the Cross but instead because you are self-righteous and believe you haved lived a "fairly decent life" you shun Gods forgivness - you dont believe you need it.

Who knows? Maybe frg001 just hasn't heard God yet because his life has been filled with self-righteous theists loudly screaming "you're going to hell!" in his ears.

Some years ago, I was certainly in that position.

 

[bunny1ohio]

This is the classic logic of a person who places belief above action.

The difference between you and Moira Hindley is praxis, that is, you act on your own sense of right and wrong. The good or evil you ascribe to your actions originate with you. Believers act upon a sense that we are participating in a paradigm wherein we act in response to, and on behalf of God -- where God is the initiator.

You don't consciously put God into the equation. Ms. Hindley did finally consciously put God into the equation and changed her ways.

I believe you're both going to heaven.

Oh boy Soj... I hafta say on this one I completely disagree with you... maybe because I'm not religious, but I'm sorry... given the option of burning in hell with the native Americans or spending eternity in heaven with Jeffrey Dahmer.... I'd rather burn... the quality of people are better

And if this "classic logic" is incorrect.... placing belief above action... then what about the "actions" of those good people who simply don't believe in YOUR God? Does that mean they will burn because their choice is to live a good life but be non-religious? And if the good or evil originates with the person... then we are all responsible for our actions... personally I think most Christians use their religion as an excuse... they can do whatever they want and if they ask for forgiveness it's OK :biglaugh: And how does anybody but Mrs. Henley know if she has changed her ways? To me it sounds like she's just covering all her bases... Just in case

 

[Booko]

You know what...I probably fit underneath the category of conservative biblical literalist...and my views on the "elect" are much different than what you assume they are as are the views of most conservative Christians I know.

I don't doubt it, Dawny. But then, I've noticed that what's put out there as "predestination" and the "elect" often bears little resemblence to anything Calvin actually wrote.

btw, I was raised Calvinist. We didn't spend our time in church worrying about who was elect and who wasn't. That's God's bizness.

 

[michel]

...And this may apply to other religions too.
Something that has nagged me for a long while...

I once was chatting to an old work colleague, a very nice person, who unfortunately(in my eyes) had become a born again christian.
I asked him the question...
Q) I have lived a fairly decent life. I try not to hurt people, I am tolerant of other peoples beliefs and lifestyles, and I live by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself", BUT I will never accept Jesus Christ, or god into my heart. Where do YOU think I will go when I die...?
He answered without even the slightest grin ... A lake of fire...hell.
Q) Moira Hindley... Notorious child killer. Repented her sins in jail and accepted jesus into her heart. Where will she go?
His sincere answer was... Heaven.

Please someone make sense of this.

There is no sense to be made of your friend's comment.

If he is correct, then (presumably) there would be a corridor in heaven for the Muslims, who would be welcomed by Allah, and one for the Christians (who would be welcomed by God)......and for all the other faiths, their deity.

Can you imagine a God, who is loving and forgiving, turning away a person such as you described in your scenario (the non-Christian) ? If I thought God would be as dismissive of those who hadn't 'followed the right religion', he would not be the God I would follow.

Your friend (to me) sounds as if he has had a dose of "Christianity talk" shoved down his neck (I don't mean to be rude), but it sounds as if (however sincere he is) he has accepted what he has been told to follow without thought.

Now that (IMO) would be something God would not be too impressed with.

 

[sojourner]

Oh boy Soj... I hafta say on this one I completely disagree with you... maybe because I'm not religious, but I'm sorry... given the option of burning in hell with the native Americans or spending eternity in heaven with Jeffrey Dahmer.... I'd rather burn... the quality of people are better

And if this "classic logic" is incorrect.... placing belief above action... then what about the "actions" of those good people who simply don't believe in YOUR God? Does that mean they will burn because their choice is to live a good life but be non-religious? And if the good or evil originates with the person... then we are all responsible for our actions... personally I think most Christians use their religion as an excuse... they can do whatever they want and if they ask for forgiveness it's OK :biglaugh: And how does anybody but Mrs. Henley know if she has changed her ways? To me it sounds like she's just covering all her bases... Just in case

It's not about a choice of who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. Heaven and hell, in my opinion, are not rewards or consequences of the choices we make. I don't care what God anybody believes in. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in God. What does matter is the impetus for one's actions. That impetus can either be selfish or selfless. And that makes the difference, even though the end result will be the same. Everybody gets in. That's the way God wants it. The difference it makes is whether we choose to be in relationship with others, or not.

 

[bunny1ohio]

It's not about a choice of who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. Heaven and hell, in my opinion, are not rewards or consequences of the choices we make. I don't care what God anybody believes in. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in God. What does matter is the impetus for one's actions. That impetus can either be selfish or selfless. And that makes the difference, even though the end result will be the same. Everybody gets in. That's the way God wants it. The difference it makes is whether we choose to be in relationship with others, or not.

Ermmm.... sorry if this sounds a bit impertinent soj, I like you a bunch.... but exactly what religion do you follow? And if everyone gets in no matter what then why are we all debating on this board to begin with? Let's all go home kill our families "for their own good" and then go to heaven?.... I don't get the leap there Soj... if heaven and hell are not reward and punishment.... then why are they there? Why not just teach about the perfect utopia that everyone is going to when we die?

 

[muichimotsu]

I would think God would just slap the person across the face for being such a self-righteous jerk, telling you that THEY know what's right because "God" told them and there are other people who have talked to this "God" too, who tells them that only certain people with a specific set of beliefs about a man that lived 2000 years ago will be given a place of paradise by this "God" that they speak of. Apparently, this God as they speak of is taking ideas from Hitler about how salvation is achieved, at least with the whole, 'everyone being the same' except apparently with God, it's a matter of what you believe, more than your looks at all, but still Nazist to say that every human wants to be saved in this manner.

 

[sojourner]

Ermmm.... sorry if this sounds a bit impertinent soj, I like you a bunch.... but exactly what religion do you follow? And if everyone gets in no matter what then why are we all debating on this board to begin with? Let's all go home kill our families "for their own good" and then go to heaven?.... I don't get the leap there Soj... if heaven and hell are not reward and punishment.... then why are they there? Why not just teach about the perfect utopia that everyone is going to when we die?

Read my bio. I believe in universal salvation. Here's why:

I believe that God is love. Love seeks relationship. Love does not coerce by force or fear. The existence of a consequence-based hell insists on coersion by fear to "do good."

Because God is love, God created each one of us in order to be in relationship with us. God wants us to be in union with God. God always gets what God wants.

Heaven is "there" so that we can all be in union with God. I don't believe hell is "there" -- at least, not permanently.

Are there consequences for our hurting others? Of course, but they are consequences of our own choosing. God loves each person equally and unconditionally. If someone chooses not to return that love, that creates a division that God did not intend. One day, God will heal that division. In the meantime, we suffer, due to our selfishness.

 

[bunny1ohio]

I believe that God is love. Love seeks relationship. Love does not coerce by force or fear. The existence of a consequence-based hell insists on coersion by fear to "do good."

Because God is love, God created each one of us in order to be in relationship with us. God wants us to be in union with God. God always gets what God wants.

Heaven is "there" so that we can all be in union with God. I don't believe hell is "there" -- at least, not permanently.

Are there consequences for our hurting others? Of course, but they are consequences of our own choosing. God loves each person equally and unconditionally. If someone chooses not to return that love, that creates a division that God did not intend. One day, God will heal that division. In the meantime, we suffer, due to our selfishness.

Well I have to say this much for you in any case Soj.... at least your theory is a bit more understandable than most Temporary punishment for us "sinners" and eternal grace and love for all.... So how do you define heaven if hell is temporary... wouldn't heaven be too? Do we retain our freedom of will in heaven or does G-d take choice away? Is that where the people go who break "heaven's rules" then? Kinda like a time-out

 

[sojourner]

Well I have to say this much for you in any case Soj.... at least your theory is a bit more understandable than most Temporary punishment for us "sinners" and eternal grace and love for all.... So how do you define heaven if hell is temporary... wouldn't heaven be too? Do we retain our freedom of will in heaven or does G-d take choice away? Is that where the people go who break "heaven's rules" then? Kinda like a time-out

Hell is not a punishment. Hell is a decision that we make to be apart from God.
We make our own choices. Love dictates freedom of the will. But I maintain that, sooner or later, all people will, when faced with God's ultimate love for them, choose to accept that love and live in unity with all.

 

[bunny1ohio]

Hell is not a punishment. Hell is a decision that we make to be apart from God.
We make our own choices. Love dictates freedom of the will. But I maintain that, sooner or later, all people will, when faced with God's ultimate love for them, choose to accept that love and live in unity with all.

*Big Cheeky Grin*..... Well Soj... I like your idea at the very least.... and biblically speaking.... Hell is exactly that... being out of G-d's presence... not a burning lake of fire.... Extra snappy Kudos for you Soj

 

[Booko]

Hell is not a punishment. Hell is a decision that we make to be apart from God.
We make our own choices. Love dictates freedom of the will. But I maintain that, sooner or later, all people will, when faced with God's ultimate love for them, choose to accept that love and live in unity with all.

fwiw, Sojourner, your pov on the heaven/hell thing is not so far off the pov in Baha'i writings.

Our decisions in this life put us further or nearer to God. In this live, we have the choice. In the next one, it's totally up to God's grace. We continue to progress in the next life, but there are still consequences. If we don't grow in this life, we end up stunted and far from God in the next. Personally, I don't want to be "born" into the next life stuck in a spiritual closet or whatever.

I want to be part of the party.

 

[lunamoth]

fwiw, Sojourner, your pov on the heaven/hell thing is not so far off the pov in Baha'i writings.

Our decisions in this life put us further or nearer to God. In this live, we have the choice. In the next one, it's totally up to God's grace. We continue to progress in the next life, but there are still consequences. If we don't grow in this life, we end up stunted and far from God in the next. Personally, I don't want to be "born" into the next life stuck in a spiritual closet or whatever.

I want to be part of the party.

In that case I have good news for you Booko. Fear not! God loves you unconditionally. :dan:

See ya there,
luna

 

[Booko]

In that case I have good news for you Booko. Fear not! God loves you unconditionally. :dan:

See ya there,
luna

Can't wait for the party, and then I can meet y'all.

Who's bringing chips & dip?