Christianity... An issue,

[sojourner]

frg001. I believe Jesus already took care of our sins. God has set rules so that we may better our lives. Earth is a collective whole. If we all treat each other well, and enjoy what we have, we are living in the will of God. Gods plan is for the earth as a whole, not for an individual or a group to overcome others. We are meant to all get along. Heaven is here on earth. We just need to make it the way we want it. It depends on which rules we want to play by.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here, with the exception of the following:
"We just need to make it the way we want it." I don't think we really know what we want. I think some of us have a vague idea...What needs to happen is that we need to stop getting in God's way and let God make the earth the way God created it to be in the first place. It's all about God -- not all about us.

 

[steve at JRM]

Then maybe we should get together and decide what we want. God has given us free will for a reason. It is a universal rule that God made, so he obeys his own rules even though he doesn't have to. But these rules apply to other worlds.

 

[sojourner]

Then maybe we should get together and decide what we want. God has given us free will for a reason. It is a universal rule that God made, so he obeys his own rules even though he doesn't have to. But these rules apply to other worlds.

Again: Not about what we want. This is God's world we live in. It only works right if we live according to God's will for us.

 

[Adstar]

Calvinist! Omigod! Absolutely not!

Where you and I get askew of each other (and please understand, I'm not here to say "you're wrong." I'm mainly here to discuss my point of view, which is fairly unique, especially where I live, to test it, so to speak, against others' views. I'm still formulating a theology out of this, so I might take off on a misleading tack from time to time) anyway, where we get askew of each other is that, if I'm reading you right, you contend that God's love takes a back seat to human free will. I say that God always gets what God wants, in the end, because God is the ultimate reality. OUr free will is fantasy compared to the reality that is God.

Yes God will get what He wants, but do you think He wants what you presume Him to want? What is God wants to save those who accept His act of Love through the atoning blood of Jesus. Salvation is Gods doing not ours but we must believe in it to obtain it. While the door is open to all, shelter is only obtain if we enter.

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[JillianMarie77]

Please someone make sense of this.

Good luck!

There are even better versions. Try chatting up a conservative biblical literalist about election and pre-destination.

Apparently god made trillions of us with only an "elect" few "predestined" for heaven.

You heard me right "you don't choose god, god chooses you"

The rest of us? We're just tinder for a fun righteous bonfire post-armageddon I suppose.

 

[dawny0826]

Good luck!

There are even better versions. Try chatting up a conservative biblical literalist about election and pre-destination.

Apparently god made trillions of us with only an "elect" few "predestined" for heaven.

You heard me right "you don't choose god, god chooses you"

The rest of us? We're just tinder for a fun righteous bonfire post-armageddon I suppose.

You know what...I probably fit underneath the category of conservative biblical literalist...and my views on the "elect" are much different than what you assume they are as are the views of most conservative Christians I know.

 

[Adstar]

Good luck!

There are even better versions. Try chatting up a conservative biblical literalist about election and pre-destination.

Apparently god made trillions of us with only an "elect" few "predestined" for heaven.

You heard me right "you don't choose god, god chooses you"

The rest of us? We're just tinder for a fun righteous bonfire post-armageddon I suppose.

Looks like you have been talking to a calvanist.

No my friend people where not created to be post armageddon bonfire fuel. We all have free will to accept The truth.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[bunny1ohio]

Personally I agree with the poster here... There are too many examples in the Bible of "God is a jealous and vengeful god" for me to believe that simply asking forgiveness absolves one of their crimes. I read a thread, not sure if it was on this board, called "no atheists in a fox hole" :162: ... gee... why do you think that is? Because if someone believes they could die :bow: suddenly they want to be saved. True belief is one thing... but I do not believe that a "CARDINAL SIN" such as murder is forgiveable. :tsk: There are too many inconsistencies in the Bible in regards to forgiveness or intolerance of God for me to believe in "ask and ye shall be saved". :shout

 

[Adstar]

Personally I agree with the poster here... There are too many examples in the Bible of "God is a jealous and vengeful god" for me to believe that simply asking forgiveness absolves one of their crimes. I read a thread, not sure if it was on this board, called "no atheists in a fox hole" :162: ... gee... why do you think that is? Because if someone believes they could die :bow: suddenly they want to be saved. True belief is one thing... but I do not believe that a "CARDINAL SIN" such as murder is forgiveable. :tsk: There are too many inconsistencies in the Bible in regards to forgiveness or intolerance of God for me to believe in "ask and ye shall be saved". :shout

Bunny could you bring up an inconsistency that makes you think that murder is unforgivable?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[maggie2]

Well, frg001,

You've gotten all the standard answers that you usually get from fundamentalist Christians. There are a few milder answers interspersed but mostly the same old stuff.

That is one of the main reasons I had to get out of the Christian faith. I just don't believe the same old same old you gotta believe in Jesus to be saved. It makes me ill when I think about people insisting that God is all-loving but that same God will allow probably at least 3/4 of the people in the world to go to hell. Doesn't make any sense to me and I guess it doesn't make any sense to you either.

Anyway, just wanted to say that reading through this thread reminded me once again of just one of the many reasons I no longer practice the Christian faith.

Sorry you didn't get much in the way of constructive answers to your questions, but then again, you usually don't under these kinds of circumstances.

 

[JillianMarie77]

You know what...I probably fit underneath the category of conservative biblical literalist...and my views on the "elect" are much different than what you assume they are as are the views of most conservative Christians I know.

I'd love to hear your views on election and pre-destination. Those concepts are rather new to me, I only encountered them a couple years ago and I was flabbergasted. My experience with people who hold said beliefs is limited to a religious debate forum and the same few women. They tend to stick to themselves and not really "get along" with anyone but themselves - not even other christians. It's all very ugly to me as is the way they treat and talk about people.

So please share. I know some other women on that board will be intrigued as well to find someone who holds these beliefs "differently"

 

[JillianMarie77]

Looks like you have been talking to a calvanist.

No my friend people where not created to be post armageddon bonfire fuel. We all have free will to accept The truth.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

YES! Calvinists! They say that sometimes.

 

[Adstar]

YES! Calvinists! They say that sometimes.

Ok calvanisim stands of 5 doctrines. These doctrines together are called tulip. I have got definitions for you below:

T,U,L,I,P

"T" in "TULIP" stands for "Total Hereditary Depravity."

"Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God."


"U" in "TULIP" stands for "Unconditional Election" (Predestination).

"God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selects. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation."


"L" in "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement."

"Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation."


"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


"P" in "TULIP" stands for "Perseverance of the Saints."

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of the almighty God and thus preserved to the end."



Ok i am not a calvinist. While God does know who will believe and come to accept Jesus as Messiah and who will not. God does not create people to believe and create other people to reject God. God knows because God knows the entire history of humanity since the creation of the universe. Of you and me and of everybody that has lived and who will live. Just because God already knows what choices people will make it does not mean that He forces people to go down the path they choose.

The scriptures show that God has foreknowledge of the future.

When God appointed Jeremiah as a prophet He told Him:

Jeremiah 1
4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
5 “ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[JillianMarie77]

Adstar,

Thank you for sharing that! These women are most definitely calvinists. Even using some of the same language in your explanations.

I'll have to ask them if they are aware of the anagram, no not anagram. What is the word? It's on the tip of my tongue! Darn it. Oh well. You know what I mean =)

 

[JillianMarie77]

Ok i am not a calvinist. While God does know who will believe and come to accept Jesus as Messiah and who will not. God does not create people to believe and create other people to reject God. God knows because God knows the entire history of humanity since the creation of the universe. Of you and me and of everybody that has lived and who will live. Just because God already knows what choices people will make it does not mean that He forces people to go down the path they choose.

The scriptures show that God has foreknowledge of the future.

Calivinism aside I still don't buy what you've said here. If god is omniscient and truly knows ahead of time what people will and ownt' choose and creates them anyways, knowing they have to go to hell it's still rather twisted.

So either god is NOT omniscient, maybe because free will is something he created and can't quite predict the outcome exactly every time

or

He IS omniscient and.....a little twisted.

 

[nutshell]

Calivinism aside I still don't buy what you've said here. If god is omniscient and truly knows ahead of time what people will and ownt' choose and creates them anyways, knowing they have to go to hell it's still rather twisted.

So either god is NOT omniscient, maybe because free will is something he created and can't quite predict the outcome exactly every time

or

He IS omniscient and.....a little twisted.

He's not twisted at all if you understand his greater purpose. After all, he seeks to bring us joy.

 

[steve at JRM]

I believe we all go to heaven, but what we do on earth controls our position in heaven. The bible talks about different levels we attain when we go to heaven. Those that hold material things above spiritual wisdom on earth, become the least in heaven.

 

[JillianMarie77]

He's not twisted at all if you understand his greater purpose. After all, he seeks to bring us joy.

I freely admit that this concept of god and heaven and eternal progression is the most "logical" and appealing version of christianity. Which is why I initially converted.

There was a time when I said "so what if Joseph is a fake and liar, that doens't mean the church isnt' true!"

Except it does.

 

[nutshell]

I freely admit that this concept of god and heaven and eternal progression is the most "logical" and appealing version of christianity. Which is why I initially converted.

There was a time when I said "so what if Joseph is a fake and liar, that doens't mean the church isnt' true!"

Except it does.

That's true...if Joseph or the BoM aren't true then neither is the church.

 

[sojourner]

Well, frg001,

You've gotten all the standard answers that you usually get from fundamentalist Christians. There are a few milder answers interspersed but mostly the same old stuff.

That is one of the main reasons I had to get out of the Christian faith. I just don't believe the same old same old you gotta believe in Jesus to be saved. It makes me ill when I think about people insisting that God is all-loving but that same God will allow probably at least 3/4 of the people in the world to go to hell. Doesn't make any sense to me and I guess it doesn't make any sense to you either.

Anyway, just wanted to say that reading through this thread reminded me once again of just one of the many reasons I no longer practice the Christian faith.

Sorry you didn't get much in the way of constructive answers to your questions, but then again, you usually don't under these kinds of circumstances.

Regrettable, because Christianity works to unite all people, yet we so often use it to divide! How much happier we would be if we could all live together. I know that comes off sounding Pollyannaish, but when are we ever going to get it through our thick skulls that it's not up to us to decide? God will judge, and God will judge in love and not based upon "what we believe." God desires that we all be united with God, because God loves us unconditionally.

Yes God will get what He wants, but do you think He wants what you presume Him to want? What is God wants to save those who accept His act of Love through the atoning blood of Jesus. Salvation is Gods doing not ours but we must believe in it to obtain it. While the door is open to all, shelter is only obtain if we enter.

If it is true that God is love (and I believe it is), then God desires relationship with us. God has saved us, and, I believe, that when we come to stand before the ultimate truth of God's unbounded love, we must wrestle with our own hearts in light of that love-judgment. And I believe that God will have patience, continuing to seek us until we are found, death notwithstanding. Someday, all of us will accept the truth that we all belong together.