Christian Wives and Obediance

[Beaudreaux]

The idea that the woman is supposed to be "quiet and respectful" even if her husband has really gone and ****** her off or hurt her is quite frankly inhuman.

It is good to see that modern Christians are able to reject those parts of the Bible they see as wrong. That the Bible, like many other books, has moral instruction that is right and moral instruction that is wrong.

 

[Beaudreaux]

We don't hoope to "make it go away." We do seek to understand why a magnanimous God, who became one of us in the person of Jesus (himself a liberal and magnanimous person, who loved everyone unconditionally), would be presented as so narrow. One has to weigh scripture and decide which carries the greater importance: messages of peace, love, and acceptance, or messages of judgment, damnation, and exclusion. It appears that Jesus always took the side of love and inclusion. So do I.

Again, I applaud modern Christians who have a higher moral standard they may use to judge the Bible's moral instruction. I think it is important to recognize that the Bible has many flaws with regard to its view of morality. The more Christians begin to accept this, the more tolerable Christianity will be to the rest of the world.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'll say that I don't believe that the Bible espouses abusive relationships, or staying in them...

Sure it does. It is clear that a wife must sumit to her husbands will. It doesn't say "if he's a nice guy".

I side with Sojourner and many others who reject these portions of the Bible as unchristian.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Not to belabor the point, but where is the wife commanded to disallow and/or reject abuse?

There is no such statement in the Bible as far as I know.

 

[Beaudreaux]

It doesnt say that.But I guess you could look at the part of "in all things as unto the Lord"..Did Jesus abuse women?Physically or verbally?.Did He require people to follow Him or listen to Him through abusive behavior towards them?If He did not require that to demonstrate faith and obedience..then neither should it be required of a wife to a husband to demonstrate obedience and faithfulness as unto the Lord.

Well, He did grab a whip once and go all Indiana Jones on some moneylenders.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I don't think the teachings of Jesus are the problem here, and for once I don't think it's the teachings of Paul, either. It's the people who use the Bible not only to justify their sick behavior, but to mandate it for everybody.

People who believe this are not "using" the Bible. They're reading it and taking its moral dictates to heart. The Bible is quite clear that wives are to submit to the will of their husbands. No one is twisting that passage in some odd way, but merely reading it as it is written.

I think such a rule is repugnant, but then I am comfortable rejecting parts of the Bible that I believe are wrong. It is not fair, though, to characterize people who follow the Bible as "using" it in some way. They're just doing what they're told.

 

[Elessar]

Just a quick aside to Messianic Jews -

Any Messianic Jewish man who expects that passage to be followed in their relationship better convert fast. Seriously. Even if they're Messianic Jewish and marry a gentile that's still an unacceptable dynamic in our community. It's one of the very small number of things that we have and will eject someone from the community for, even someone who's been raised from birth in it who married and brought someone else in; the wife (or ex-wife) brought in is more welcome in the community than he ever will be.

EDIT: Let me amend my statement - that expects that passage to be followed in the way it is generally portrayed and/or interpreted.

 

[Mister Emu]

Sure it does.

It neither espouses abusive relationships... nor does it demand that a wife stay in one, quote the Bible where it says "a wife must accept abuse at the hands of their husbands"...

It doesn't say "if he's a nice guy".

It also doesn't say "even if he commands you to deny Christ", or "even if he beats you"...

People who believe this are not "using" the Bible. They're reading it and taking its moral dictates to heart. The Bible is quite clear that wives are to submit to the will of their husbands. No one is twisting that passage in some odd way, but merely reading it as it is written.

Husbands who use the verse to dominate their wives are also ignoring the Bible's commands to said husbands...

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, no one is saying your marriage or marriages like yours are not happy, not worthy, and unworkable. In fact I think I said so twice in this thread.

The problem is it's the command from the bible that it should be thus and so, when people are so different all over the world; perhaps it makes more sense for the husband in a particular relationship to cede to his wife's wishes and make sure HE has dinner ready for HER when she comes home.

(Not even getting into how a gay couple would handle this, if it were actually a rule of thumb! )

The point is in a good relationship one must find what works, and no one else can say what that looks like for everyone. Not a god, not you, not me.

The Bible is not commanding that the wife have dinner on the table by 6. The bible is saying that SOMEONE HAS TO BE IN CHARGE. Stockholders, CEOs, universities, the military, government, non profit organizations - just about every group of people with any sort of sense of order acknowledge this basic general fact. Are there exceptions? Of course there are - there are exceptions in the bible. Deborah was a woman judge and ruler in Israel. Rahab was a prostitute that lied to government officials and is honored. Jael stabbed her horrible husband through the ear while he slept - and is considered a brave, honorable woman in the bible. The epistles of the NT mention many women who were obviously well respected and active in their communities.

The bible is NOT saying that the husband rules everything with an iron fist. For example, take a look at the woman in Proverbs 31 - the EXAMPLE of balanced womanhood. She buys and sells property, she dresses in fine clothes, she runs the business of the house, including a staff, and she is so well thought of in town that her husband rises up to honor her. This woman is no mouse. She obviously has her own mind and makes many, many decisions totally independent of her husband.

He doesn't MICROMANAGE her. That's not what true biblical submission is about.

 

[Smoke]

People who believe this are not "using" the Bible. They're reading it and taking its moral dictates to heart. The Bible is quite clear that wives are to submit to the will of their husbands. No one is twisting that passage in some odd way, but merely reading it as it is written.

I think such a rule is repugnant, but then I am comfortable rejecting parts of the Bible that I believe are wrong. It is not fair, though, to characterize people who follow the Bible as "using" it in some way. They're just doing what they're told.

I may have known more pathologically religious people than you have. Some of them really take the submission thing to an absurd extreme -- an extreme not justified by the text.

 

[Ozzie]

Some of the pro-submission arguments here make me wonder why polyandry is not more common.

 

[Kathryn]

You know what - I can't help but think that there's a lot of subconscious MAN BASHING going on here. Where's your confidence in men? Do you even believe there are men out there who have the capability to love a woman like Christ loves His church - willing to sacrifice ANYTHING for her wellbeing, cherishing her with an undying love, honoring her with all his gifts and treating her tenderly?

It sure doesn't sound like it.

Unmarried women out there - may I suggest that if you're looking for a mate, you look for one like that? They ARE out there - and if you're lucky enough to find one of those jewels, you may not find the concept of "submission" so bad after all. You'll find that you're submitting yourself to being treated with respect.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know what - I can't help but think that there's a lot of subconscious MAN BASHING going on here. Where's your confidence in men? Do you even believe there are men out there who have the capability to love a woman like Christ loves His church - willing to sacrifice ANYTHING for her wellbeing, cherishing her with an undying love, honoring her with all his gifts and treating her tenderly?

It sure doesn't sound like it.

Unmarried women out there - may I suggest that if you're looking for a mate, you look for one like that? They ARE out there - and if you're lucky enough to find one of those jewels, you may not find the concept of "submission" so bad after all. You'll find that you're submitting yourself to being treated with respect.

If it is so easy to submit to a man who loves and respects you, then why is it emphasized so much to women to do it? Wouldn't it be instinctual, then?

I certainly don't bash men - I bash patriarchy and misogyny. My criticism of the NT is based on what I perceive to be women-bashing and a lack of trust that women will play the role expected in marriage.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

If it is so easy to submit to a man who loves and respects you, then why is it emphasized so much to women to do it? Wouldn't it be instinctual, then?

Because when it was written, relationships were planned rather than based on love. When things are planned they require guidlines and rules. Thankfully we have mostly given up on planned marriages and can therefore give up on the rules behind them. It was all BS to begin with.

 

[Kathryn]

If it is so easy to submit to a man who loves and respects you, then why is it emphasized so much to women to do it? Wouldn't it be instinctual, then?

I certainly don't bash men - I bash patriarchy and misogyny. My criticism of the NT is based on what I perceive to be women-bashing and a lack of trust that women will play the role expected in marriage.

You have to read biblical passages in the context of the time in which they were written. Most societies in that era were male dominated, slavery was a common practice, women were property, etc.

Jesus came along and elevated women by his example of treatment of them. This treatment is highlighted in the Gospels and a basic part of current Christian beliefs- but it was radical at the time.

Paul's writings do, in my opinion, carry a bit of undue weight when it comes to the behavior of Christian women. These views are often misapplied by sects or individuals that don't take the totality of womanhood in the scriptures into consideration. We have to balance Paul's writings (and Paul was unmarried) with ALL the other writings about women, in both the Old and New Testament.

Look at the Song of Solomon - what a beautiful expression of devotion and love between a man and a woman. I can't imagine that woman being oppressed. Look at Rachel and Jacob and Jacob's sacrifices to marry the woman he loved. Look at Jesus' gentle treatment of the women in his circle of followers - and outside that circle. Read the writings of James and in 1 John and you will not find anything that smacks of subservience when it comes to women.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You have to read biblical passages in the context of the time in which they were written. Most societies in that era were male dominated, slavery was a common practice, women were property, etc.

Jesus came along and elevated women by his example of treatment of them. This treatment is highlighted in the Gospels and a basic part of current Christian beliefs- but it was radical at the time.

Paul's writings do, in my opinion, carry a bit of undue weight when it comes to the behavior of Christian women. These views are often misapplied by sects or individuals that don't take the totality of womanhood in the scriptures into consideration. We have to balance Paul's writings (and Paul was unmarried) with ALL the other writings about women, in both the Old and New Testament.

Look at the Song of Solomon - what a beautiful expression of devotion and love between a man and a woman. I can't imagine that woman being oppressed. Look at Rachel and Jacob and Jacob's sacrifices to marry the woman he loved. Look at Jesus' gentle treatment of the women in his circle of followers - and outside that circle. Read the writings of James and in 1 John and you will not find anything that smacks of subservience when it comes to women.

Thank you, Kathryn. I'll brush up on some reading of these passages and consider your answer.

Do you believe that the abuses that exist in these patriarchal structures are cultural hangovers, then? Are many congregations misapplying the texts by focusing squarely on the wife's role, and glossing over the role of the husband?

 

[Kathryn]

Thank you, Kathryn. I'll brush up on some reading of these passages and consider your answer.

Do you believe that the abuses that exist in these patriarchal structures are cultural hangovers, then? Are many congregations misapplying the texts by focusing squarely on the wife's role, and glossing over the role of the husband?

Yes, I believe a lot of that goes on.

 

[sojourner]

I can appreciate that, but according to the Bible, who gets to decide if the marriage is abusive or not? Who has the authority or the wisdom according to scripture to interpret behavior as Biblical or not? From what I have read, it certainly isn't the wife that is trusted with that kind of wisdom.

Not to belabor the point, but where is the wife commanded to disallow and/or reject abuse?

That's all well and good, but "according to the Bible," our marriages should be based on an honor/shame paradigm. Much of Biblical morality is based in the culture of the time and place. As times and places change, our moral response has to change, as well.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That's all well and good, but "according to the Bible," our marriages should be based on an honor/shame paradigm. Much of Biblical morality is based in the culture of the time and place. As times and places change, our moral response has to change, as well.

Gotcha.

 

[sojourner]

You know, there seems to be a lot of discussion about the ABUSE of the concept of biblical submission - using these passages to unfairly dominate a relationship, women confusing biblical submission with being mousy and subservient, etc.

These "old fashioned" dynamics of strong men and gentle women, protective men and soft, feminine wives, etc. actually DO WORK well in many marriages - and is that a BAD thing?

Why are submissive wives ridiculed or looked down upon? Why are "manly men" who enjoy home cooked meals most nights, having an attractive and rested wife meet them at the door, maybe even with a drink in hand, and with a dab of perfume at the nape of her neck - why is this seemingly ridiculed or considered irrelevent in today's society? Is there something wrong with these dynamics? Is there something wrong with a couple striving toward this pattern?

Sorry but I just don't see it. My husband LOVES for me to get home before him (which I usually do), and have dinner ready when he comes in. I make it a point to go freshen up, put on a little lipgloss and a cute shirt, and have a smile on my face when he comes in. He really does work very hard and goes beyond the expected for his family. I don't mind showing him gratitude in ways that HE wants to be shown that gratitude.

I also love to help him take his work boots off and give him a foot massage with peppermint cream. I kneel at his feet while I do this. Some would call this subservient, but it's really just the best position to give a foot massage in - I promise. He's in heaven!

I also watch my weight and try to keep myself as attractive as possible - because my husband really appreciates that too.

In return, he ALWAYS helps clean up the kitchen, and after dinner we sit together in the living room, share a bottle of wine, read, watch "House" reruns - whatever. If I've had a hard day, he's relaxed enough now to give ME a massage. Let me point out also that he has the "big" job and I have a sort of lightweight job - and we planned it this way, so that we can have a more "traditional" balance to our lives.

My point is this - my little bit of sacrifice between 6-8 pm every night results in one EXTREMELY happy husband who spoils me rotten. Believe me, I don't call this a step backwards for women, or abuse by my husband.

It's a great lifestyle, but it takes TWO cooperative people to pull it off. I took a huge paycut and career "setback" so that I could have a job that isn't so demanding, and he knows he has to work hard to make up that difference. But home cooked meals, clothes drying in the sun on the line, a rested wife rather than a frazzled one, great foot massages, and calm evenings at home were worth it to both of us.

I encourage any couple caught in today's hectic lifestyle to consider how they might simplify their lives and try a more traditional approach.

Your description is that of a much more 21st century, 50-50 marriage than it is that of a 1st century honor/shame marriage.