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Christian Wives and Obediance

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
And who, exactly, gave a Pastafarian the authority to interpret Christian scripture?
Friend Elessar (pasta be on your plate), the FSM in his noodly wisdom has given me the ability to read straightforward moral dictates and understand them. He has given almost all humans this same ability. When I read in the Bible that Ephesians instructs wives to obey their husbands in all things, I understand it for what it is. Thus, if a husband tells his abused wife not to leave him, the writer of Ephesians expects her to obey since that situation is included in "all things."

May you also be touched by His noodly appendage Elessar and never want for the meatballs of spiritual insight.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I still don't think my basic question has been answered:
What is the purpose of having a woman submit to her husband in all things?
This only really works in a culture where honor and shame are imbedded in one's sexuality. In that culture, men embody honor. Women embody shame. therefore, being the honorable one, the man is in charge of the household. It really doesn't work in a culture in which men and women are viewed in essentially the same way.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
This only really works in a culture where honor and shame are imbedded in one's sexuality. In that culture, men embody honor. Women embody shame. therefore, being the honorable one, the man is in charge of the household. It really doesn't work in a culture in which men and women are viewed in essentially the same way.
This is SUCH an example of how the people in power make the rules. Remember when they bring an adulteress to Jesus to be stoned? Where was the guy?.... Somehow, she sinned but He didn't.

It still exists in other cultures today. In some parts of the middle east, if a woman is raped she may be killed for ruining her family's honor. Sometimes the husband does it, sometimes the father or brother. HOW IN THE HELL IS THIS STILL HAPPENING IN 2009?????????
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
Friend Elessar (pasta be on your plate), the FSM in his noodly wisdom has given me the ability to read straightforward moral dictates and understand them. He has given almost all humans this same ability. When I read in the Bible that Ephesians instructs wives to obey their husbands in all things, I understand it for what it is. Thus, if a husband tells his abused wife not to leave him, the writer of Ephesians expects her to obey since that situation is included in "all things."

May you also be touched by His noodly appendage Elessar and never want for the meatballs of spiritual insight.

All things are more expansive than the specific text. To read the text without the context of culture and tradition is to lose the meaning.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
All things are more expansive than the specific text. To read the text without the context of culture and tradition is to lose the meaning.
I've been over this with Sojourner. The sociohistorical context is one where, among other things, women were viewed as less than men. This means that the instruction in Ephesians that wives submit to their husbands "in all things" is completely understandable for that time. If anything, it lends even more support to the idea that wives would be expected to stay with an abusive husband if he instructed her to. The context supports what I am saying.

Now, if you want to argue that we should ingnore that instruction because it was a result of the sociohistorical context, you're preaching to the choir. I think there are many moral instructions in the Bible that are products of the times back then and that should be disregarded today. Rules about homosexuality, kosher foods, divorce...all products of the sociohistorical context. Do you agree they should be disregarded today?
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
I've been over this with Sojourner. The sociohistorical context is one where, among other things, women were viewed as less than men. This means that the instruction in Ephesians that wives submit to their husbands "in all things" is completely understandable for that time. If anything, it lends even more support to the idea that wives would be expected to stay with an abusive husband if he instructed her to. The context supports what I am saying.

Now, if you want to argue that we should ingnore that instruction because it was a result of the sociohistorical context, you're preaching to the choir. I think there are many moral instructions in the Bible that are products of the times back then and that should be disregarded today. Rules about homosexuality, kosher foods, divorce...all products of the sociohistorical context. Do you agree they should be disregarded today?

The Law does not change, but its interpretations evolve. Then again, if I may, I don't hold Paul's writings to be binding; so I don't even believe this passage to be a commandment along the lines of kashrut or sexual immorality as found in the Torah.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Go Dallas!! :D

I still don't think my basic question has been answered:
What is the purpose of having a woman submit to her husband in all things?

I found an interesting answer to my own question:

1 Cor 11:7-9 said:
7A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
This explains why, in Christianity, females are considered inferior to males.

To continue:
1 Cor 11:10 said:
10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
I read someone who interpreted "because of the angels" in this fasion:

Her external act of submission is important "because of the angels." I take that to mean that ladies who submit to their husbands, not because he is any better than her but simply because it is God's way, provide an excellent example to the angels in heaven. If she can submit to her husband with all his faults and problems, then certainly the angels should be able to submit to the Holy God.

The quote is here. I had been researching whether angels have free-will when I stumbled upon it.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
The Law does not change, but its interpretations evolve. Then again, if I may, I don't hold Paul's writings to be binding; so I don't even believe this passage to be a commandment along the lines of kashrut or sexual immorality as found in the Torah.
Oh, that good ole Torah. It has some of the most interesting laws that do not change. Consider Leviticus 20.
  • Adulterers are to be killed
  • Children who talk back to their parents are to be killed
  • Gays...killed.
  • If a woman even approaches doing bestiality...death (for the animal, too. Men, curiously not mentioned here......)
  • Fortune tellers...killed
Since you are clear that these laws do not change, I am curious how you have managed to stay out of jail after killing at least a few cheats, brats, gays, and psychics over the years.

Oh, and please don't try to say that you can reinterpret these laws. If a law says "Kill gays," changing it to say "don't kill gays" is not reinterpreting. It's changing it.
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
Oh, that good ole Torah. It has some of the most interesting laws that do not change. Consider Leviticus 20.
  • Adulterers are to be killed
  • Children who talk back to their parents are to be killed
  • Gays...killed.
  • If a woman even approaches doing bestiality...death (for the animal, too. Men, curiously not mentioned here......)
  • Fortune tellers...killed
Since you are clear that these laws do not change, I am curious how you have managed to stay out of jail after killing at least a few cheats, brats, gays, and psychics over the years.

Oh, and please don't try to say that you can reinterpret these laws. If a law says "Kill gays," changing it to say "don't kill gays" is not reinterpreting. It's changing it.

The death penalty is merely a measure of the seriousness of a violation of the Torah. Simply because the penalty can be death, does not mean it always is. Are all murderers executed today? In fact, the death penalty has not been handed down by a Jewish court in millennia, even for murder and blasphemy.

In addition, these laws can only be enforced in a state which is run by a Jewish theocracy, by a government. It is not the place of individuals to take up these laws and enforce them; that would be anarchy. It is the place of a Jewish court. To take it upon ourselves as vigilantes would be a violation of the spirit of the Torah. To sentence a violation of the Torah is for a court, which would first make a determination of guilt or non-guilt through a fair trial, with rights for representation, witnesses, counter-questioning, and even the right to not self-incriminate.

Besides; it is not our place to enforce the Law on the gentiles.

--and, as a note - it is NOT children who talk back to their parents who receive the death penalty, but "rebellious" - and rebellious meaning much stronger form than in English; to be in violation of this law, one would have to use physical intimidation and violence against one's own parents.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
The death penalty is merely a measure of the seriousness of a violation of the Torah. Simply because the penalty can be death, does not mean it always is.

The penalty for any of those listed should never carry a death sentence period.Death shouldnt even be considered.

Some of them shouldnt even be considred a crime at all.Let alone carry a "possible" death sentence.In fact beastiality is the only criminal act I see on that list.

Adultery would be next.Which I would agree only that its a civil violation against your spouse in which they shoudl be able to sue you for divorce and possibly money damages for pain and suffering ONLY(maximum) in that case.

And if you are describing a child being physically violent towards their parents?Of course that would be criminal.The same as it would be criminal if your child was violent towards anyone.

The fact that it would be considered at all to kill anyone for any of those listed is really sad.

Love

Dallas
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
The death penalty is merely a measure of the seriousness of a violation of the Torah. Simply because the penalty can be death, does not mean it always is. Are all murderers executed today? In fact, the death penalty has not been handed down by a Jewish court in millennia, even for murder and blasphemy.

In addition, these laws can only be enforced in a state which is run by a Jewish theocracy, by a government. It is not the place of individuals to take up these laws and enforce them; that would be anarchy. It is the place of a Jewish court. To take it upon ourselves as vigilantes would be a violation of the spirit of the Torah. To sentence a violation of the Torah is for a court, which would first make a determination of guilt or non-guilt through a fair trial, with rights for representation, witnesses, counter-questioning, and even the right to not self-incriminate.

Besides; it is not our place to enforce the Law on the gentiles.

--and, as a note - it is NOT children who talk back to their parents who receive the death penalty, but "rebellious" - and rebellious meaning much stronger form than in English; to be in violation of this law, one would have to use physical intimidation and violence against one's own parents.
In the Torah law, it is written that those people must die. To say that they do not need to be killed is to change that law, or at the very least disregard its instruction. The fact that Jewish courts have disregarded it for centuries is a blessing to all, but they are still ignoring it.
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
In the Torah law, it is written that those people must die. To say that they do not need to be killed is to change that law, or at the very least disregard its instruction. The fact that Jewish courts have disregarded it for centuries is a blessing to all, but they are still ignoring it.

No, we do not ignore it. It lists the maximum penalty for a crime; every crime perpetrated is unique, with a unique criminal, a unique victim (if any), and unique circumstances. All of these must be considered. It appears to be a harsh, explicit, unbending law upon looking at it, but what exists in the Torah is the codified laws, the statutes of G-d, if you will. These statutes are unbending and unchanging; however, interpretation of the statutes - their intent, the other possible penalties which could be exercised in certain cases, and so on, is evolved within oral traditions, going back even to when the Torah was written.

These oral traditions, the caselaw, if you will, are the interpretations, over several millennia, of the unchanging code of the Torah. Interpretations do, occasionally, change, over time, but passages must be interpreted. The caselaw, the oral traditions, evolve. We have the redacted Mishnah, part of the Talmud, which is the earliest of traditions, which today have a status almost or exactly equal to the original codified Torah. We have the gemara, the other part of the Talmud, which are more recent interpretations of the Mishnah's interpretations of the Torah. Then, there have been rabbis, over millennia since the redaction of the Talmud, which issue rulings, to this day, based upon not only the Torah but on the "caselaw" from it - basing their rulings on the rulings of previous learned scholars in addition to their own studies.

The difference is like that between the Napoleonic Code system and the English Common Law system. In the Napoleonic system, caselaw is technically forbidden. All statutes must be read, as reported, and enforced explicitly as written. At least, in theory, Napoleonic courts act on this. In the English system, however, there is interpretation of statutes, based on older traditions and previous decisions of other courts. For example, in the United States, when a normal judge is making a decision based on a property dispute. He looks to the statutory law established on these bases, statutory law established by the state legislature. But he also looks to caselaw on other property disputes, both in that state and in other places with the same system, sometimes even back centuries in time to English courts, complex disputes sometimes drawing on caselaw going back to the 13th century! This is the most critical. He issues a ruling based on all of these. He does not consider constitutionality; the Constitution itself is not his to interpret! But he bases it on statutes which ultimately derive their authority from the Constitution, and caselaw which derives its authority from the same. Sometimes, caselaw can even override the statutes!

When you look at the Torah, you see a basic law code. You see it and assume that it must be followed directly, because it seems explicit. But it isn't. It is a law code surrounded with traditions through which you must read in order to understand what the passages mean.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
No, we do not ignore it. It lists the maximum penalty for a crime;
No. No it doesn't. If it were doing that, it would read something like this:

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. The maximum punishment for this is death
But you and I both know that that is NOT what the Torah says. To be exact, it says:
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
It is the furthest thing from listing a maximum penalty. It is a MANDATE that you must kill the offender. That is what God commands. How could the author have communicated this any more clearly to you?

Sometimes, caselaw can even override the statutes!
Your use of the word "override" is telling here. What do we do when we override a statute? We DISREGARD it. It has no power any longer and other rules (case law, oral tradition, whatever) now hold sway. Again, if Jewish "case law" over the years now overrides the Torah on this point, I'm the first one to stand up and cheer. That rule in the Torah is bogus and should not be followed.
 
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