Christian Wives and Obediance

[Beaudreaux]

I have read the Bible and if you've read my posts on RF, you know that I find much of its teachings lacking. There is ONE teaching I am particularly curious about. Ephesians 5:22-25 states:

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

How do you Christian women out there feel about submitting to your current/future husbands? I know, I know, the verse also says that husbands are to love their wives, but that certainly is part of the entire message and does not cancel out the fact that women must submit to the husband's will. When you and your husband/future husband disagree on something, it is your job to submit to his will, yes?

 

[whereismynotecard]

I think they need to release a remake of the bible that works better for modern society.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I have read the Bible and if you've read my posts on RF, you know that I find much of its teachings lacking. There is ONE teaching I am particularly curious about. Ephesians 5:22-25 states:

How do you Christian women out there feel about submitting to your current/future husbands? I know, I know, the verse also says that husbands are to love their wives, but that certainly is part of the entire message and does not cancel out the fact that women must submit to the husband's will. When you and your husband/future husband disagree on something, it is your job to submit to his will, yes?

I think submission to a husband is totally bogus, but it's not about what I think, it's what God thinks. On that note, Christian wives must submit to their husbands in everything. Some women are cool with this. The rest of us have the option to not get married, or to marry a man who we know will respect our wishes and not desire to excercise authority over us.

We also see that there are several strong and assertive females in the Bible, especially when we consider the times the Bible was written in...times where women were often considered no more valuable than livestock. I especially think of Deborah and Esther when I think of strong women in the Bible.

Then there's also Proverbs 31:10-31, which provides us with a picture of the model wife- one who has the trust of her husband, buys her own fields, girds herself with strength, and opens her mouth with wisdom.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe that there's no such thing as 50/50 in any relationship - at least not across the board in every area. SOMEONE has to be in charge. That being said, if my husband and I came to a downright impasse over something, I would submit to him, as long as it wasn't something morally wrong he wanted me to do.

Submission in my marriage works GREAT - but then, I married a terrific guy who is very fair and very good to me. He has NEVER asked or expected me to do something that would disrespect my time, effort, or person. I'm a very opinionated person and it takes a very strong man not to be run over by me, unintentionally. My wonderful husband manages to encourage me to be submissive WITH DIGNITY - and hey, it's great!

Believe me when I say - I got the best end of this deal.

 

[Sunstone]

If I were in the market for a wife, I'd look more for a partner than an employee.

 

[whereismynotecard]

If I were in the market for a wife, I'd look more for a partner than an employee.

I'd look for someone who could make really good cupcakes. I've been craving a cupcake.

 

[Smoke]

I think submission to a husband is totally bogus, but it's not about what I think, it's what God thinks.

Or what you think he thinks.

I'd look for someone who could make really good cupcakes. I've been craving a cupcake.

If you marry for cupcakes, you're really going to earn those cupcakes.

I'm not married to a woman, of course, but my dad is, and I have the same arrangement in my household as he has in his. That is, we are allowed to imagine we're in charge as long as, when it comes to important things, we know damned well what we'd better decide.

 

[Draka]

The rest of us have the option to not get married, or to marry a man who we know will respect our wishes and not desire to excercise authority over us.

Thing is, you may marry a man who starts out respecting your wishes and then goes all uber religious on you. I had a friend I had known since before kindergarten and on until after high school before we lost touch eventually. Before we lost touch though she had married her high school sweetheart. After a couple years of marriage he got involved in a new church and got "transformed". He got on this kick about wives obeying and submitting to their husbands in ALL things. One day in the middle of winter, amidst much snow, they were at the mall and he was done and ready to go and she wanted to look at how much a particular dress would cost before they left. While she was in one of the stores he took their son and left her there. Since he carried all their money she didn't have cab or even bus fare. She had to walk, in the blustery snow, to a particular grocery store to get a friend to give her a ride home.

That certainly wasn't the worst of it though. There was also the time she came home sick from one of her two jobs and was in bed sleeping when he came home and decided to "teach her a lesson about who was boss". Over-powered her, stripped her down, and when she finally stopped struggling and gave up, right before he started the "act" he got up and threw her clothes to her and told her "Just wanted to show you...you don't have a choice." When she called me up crying and telling me about this...well...let's just say he was damn lucky I was in California at the time.

Gratefully that was the last straw for her and she left him. It does go to show you though just how serious some of these guys can go over.

 

[invisible chzbrgr]

I believe that there's no such thing as 50/50 in any relationship - at least not across the board in every area. SOMEONE has to be in charge. That being said, if my husband and I came to a downright impasse over something, I would submit to him, as long as it wasn't something morally wrong he wanted me to do.

Submission in my marriage works GREAT - but then, I married a terrific guy who is very fair and very good to me. He has NEVER asked or expected me to do something that would disrespect my time, effort, or person. I'm a very opinionated person and it takes a very strong man not to be run over by me, unintentionally. My wonderful husband manages to encourage me to be submissive WITH DIGNITY - and hey, it's great!

Believe me when I say - I got the best end of this deal.

I think that sounds like a great relationship, you understand one another. I think the OP's concern is that it must be the woman, at least according to scripture (and that would be my concern too, honestly, if I were inclined to take guidance from it).

My husband and I are 50/50, we submit to one another's areas of expertise, as it were, and learn from one another all the time.

 

[Inky]

I have a friend who chose to enter a "submissive" role in her relationship with her boyfriend, not because they're Christian, but because the dom/sub lifestyle works for them. As far as I can tell it's the same as what's being described here; she submits to his decisions, and he uses his authority responsibly and keeps her best interest in mind. I think that it takes a very unique personality and a lot of contemplation beforehand to commit to that sort of relationship. It's a good thing that modern Christianity doesn't emphasize it, since entering into that situation as a default, because it's expected, is a bad idea, for both the wife and the husband.

As for no relationship being 50/50...I don't think there's any way to precisely analyze a relationship and say it's exactly a 50/50 power dynamic, but most good relationships (not all) are pretty close. I wouldn't be able to say whether I or my boyfriend makes more of the decisions that involve both of us.

 

[madhatter85]

You have to read it carefully to understand it. It is not about submitting themselves to him under any circumstances.

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord

In my understanding and belief it is only when they are following the Gospel and making decisions that is within the bounds of the Gospel plan that they are to follow them. That as the husband listens and obeys the Lord, the wife is to listen and obey the husband.

We are taught against "Unrighteous dominion" very frequently, which alot of Men try to do to thier wives. They feellike because they are the head of the household that they have the final say nomatter what. That is what is bogus and disgusting.

You also have to remember that as with anything, More responsibility = more accountability. The more decisions they make the more the consequences of thier actions fall upon thier own head.

 

[Kathryn]

Even in business (and face it, marriage is in part a business decision as well), there's no real thing as a 50/50 sharing of power. That's because it really doesn't work. You may THINK you're in a 50/50 relationship, but one of you is dominant. I'd bet my KitchenAid mixer on it!

By dominant I don't mean abusive. Dominance isn't by it's very nature a bad thing.

I don't mean to imply that my husband makes the final decision on everything - he certainly doesn't. I have my areas of expertise and he has his. We discuss and weigh our options on any major decisions, and we listen carefully to each other. But if we just cannot come to an agreement, I back down, even if it means allowing him to make a mistake.

And usually he doesn't make a mistake.

In order for this concept to work, you have to take the passages of scripture that discuss this and read them in context. How does a Christian submit to the Lord? By admitting our weaknesses and accepting His love, his grace, his mercy, his SACRIFICE. So...let's apply this to marriage. As a PERSON, I admit that I have areas of weakness and that my husband is a man of integrity that I can absolutely trust to love me, have mercy on me, and sacrifice for me. Like Christ, he has my best interests in mind. I know he will put me before himself.

My gosh, women out there, if you find a man like that, I promise you, submission is EASY! The problem is - there aren't a lot of men like that out there.

After a Christian accepts God's grace, we have to trust that God has a plan for our lives, and accept that will and strive to achieve our fullest potential - to glorify him by showing the world the power of his love.

I accept that my husband wants to provide the best life possible for our family. I accept his sincerity, hard work and WISDOM. I accept that he wants to provide stability in which I can reach my fullest potential as a woman and a mate. I am proud of my husband and don't mind letting that pride and respect show to any and everyone.

See, I think this verse showcases a very important difference between men and women in general. GENERALLY speaking, I believe that women yearn for and respond well to expressions of love in a relationship. Generally speaking, we like romance. Men seem to yearn for and respond well to admiration and RESPECT.

Example: when my husband tells me he loves me, or that I am beautiful, wow I just love that. I like it when he tells me how smart he thinks I am, too, of course, but mmmmm, romance is so yummy.

For HIM though - he loves it when I tell him how proud I am of him - or brag about a decision he made at work, or admire the way he fixed something around the house. Sure, he likes it when I tell him that I love him, but he LOVES it when I compliment him on his work.

The verse we're discussing hits on this difference.

And by the way - submission based in gratitude can be a beautiful experience.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I believe that there's no such thing as 50/50 in any relationship - at least not across the board in every area. SOMEONE has to be in charge. That being said, if my husband and I came to a downright impasse over something, I would submit to him, as long as it wasn't something morally wrong he wanted me to do.

Submission in my marriage works GREAT - but then, I married a terrific guy who is very fair and very good to me. He has NEVER asked or expected me to do something that would disrespect my time, effort, or person. I'm a very opinionated person and it takes a very strong man not to be run over by me, unintentionally. My wonderful husband manages to encourage me to be submissive WITH DIGNITY - and hey, it's great!

Believe me when I say - I got the best end of this deal.

It sounds like you have a very nice situation. I must say, though, that it sounds like you are willing to submit to his will as long as it is something you would not mind doing anyway. Submitting to another's will means putting your own will in the back seat and doing something that you do not want (will) to do. Have you done this?

 

[Beaudreaux]

As for no relationship being 50/50...I don't think there's any way to precisely analyze a relationship and say it's exactly a 50/50 power dynamic

Sure there is. When the husband and wife disagree, it's a tie vote and no action can be taken. Only when both agree can action be taken.

 

[sojourner]

I have read the Bible and if you've read my posts on RF, you know that I find much of its teachings lacking. There is ONE teaching I am particularly curious about. Ephesians 5:22-25 states:

How do you Christian women out there feel about submitting to your current/future husbands? I know, I know, the verse also says that husbands are to love their wives, but that certainly is part of the entire message and does not cancel out the fact that women must submit to the husband's will. When you and your husband/future husband disagree on something, it is your job to submit to his will, yes?

I'm not a Christian woman, but I play one on TV...
Taking passages out of context and ordering your common life around it is dangerous and ill-conceived, at best.

 

[Beaudreaux]

You have to read it carefully to understand it.

Why is that? What makes this passage more difficult to understand than others? It seems straightforward to me. Wives submit, husbands love.

It is not about submitting themselves to him under any circumstances.

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord

Please explain the circumstances when one does not submit to the Lord!!! Dude, you are reading this like a 21st century humanist.

In my understanding and belief it is only when they are following the Gospel and making decisions that is within the bounds of the Gospel plan that they are to follow them. That as the husband listens and obeys the Lord, the wife is to listen and obey the husband.

Where does it say that??? You may want to read a little ditty about what happens to those who add or take away from the Word of God (even a jot or a tittle...)

I still don't understand why people, who claim that the Bible is their prime authority, feel the need to explain away some of its direct instructions because they do not fit in with modern, humanistic morality. Why do you not accept this instruction as it is? Why do you feel any need whatsoever to explain it away?

We are taught against "Unrighteous dominion" very frequently, which alot of Men try to do to thier wives. They feellike because they are the head of the household that they have the final say nomatter what. That is what is bogus and disgusting.

Dude, don't get me wrong. I think this "submit to your husbands" stuff is a big steaming pile of crap. That's partially because I recognize a LOT of the Bible's instructions are crap. But I encounter people all the time who tell me they look to the Bible as God's infallible Word on moral instruction, then they backpedal like crazy when I bring up passages like this one. Just like you're backpedaling right now. For some reason, THIS verse needs SPECIAL reading. Please!

 

[tumbleweed41]

Some things for Christian women to think about.......

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. 1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands. Yay for womens rights!!!!!!!!!!
:no:

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'm not a Christian woman, but I play one on TV...
Taking passages out of context and ordering your common life around it is dangerous and ill-conceived, at best.

The "out of context" charge is used by many Christians with whom I talk as a sort of silver bullet that they somehow feel will make the bad scripture go away. So, here's a little context for you, Sojourner:

The book of Ephesians is a letter to the church at Ephesus. The predominant theory is that Saint Paul wrote this letter while he was in prison in Rome around 62 AD, though some scholars feel that it could have been written as late as 170 AD.

The sociohistorical context of the letter is that the Church at Ephesus was multicultural. Jews and Hellenists were the primary populations in the church and there was much division between them. Paul's letter focuses strongly on behavior that is Godly and will keep the peace between the factions.
​

So, can you explain how my presentation of Paul's admonition for wives to submit to their husbands is somehow "out of context"? If not, you'd better start doing what your husband says.

 

[madhatter85]

But I encounter people all the time who tell me they look to the Bible as God's infallible Word on moral instruction

B,

My beliefs are not based soley on the bible, I am LDS, so i base my beliefs on the bible, The Book of Mormon, the doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Scriptures

I do not view the bible as some kind of Ultimate authority. I view it as a manifestation of the source of ultimate instruction [Heavenly Father]. alot of the mainstram chrisitans believe the bible is the only thing god has or ever will give us as far as revelation goes. and while some things are relevant to our day in age, there is alot that is not because the world is dynamic. And with that comes the need for continuing revelation.

 

[Beaudreaux]

B,

My beliefs are not based soley on the bible, I am LDS, so i base my beliefs on the bible, The Book of Mormon, the doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Scriptures

I do not view the bible as some kind of Ultimate authority. I view it as a manifestation of the source of ultimate instruction [Heavenly Father]. alot of the mainstram chrisitans believe the bible is the only thing god has or ever will give us as far as revelation goes. and while some things are relevant to our day in age, there is alot that is not because the world is dynamic. And with that comes the need for continuing revelation.

Oh.....cool! Well, I'm with you then. This passage is dead wrong. Women should not, as a general rule, always submit to their husband's will. I say that for much the same reason you do. The Bible is not authoritative to me and there are many other, and sometimes better, sources of wisdom and moral instruction out there.

I am curious how Christians reconcile this anachronistic directive. It seems they value humanistic morality as much as I do.