Mr Spinkles
Mr
Thank you. Now for the second part of my question: why not?
Do you WANT to Shovel manure for eternity?
Do you WANT to Shovel manure for eternity?
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"Choosing" to Go to Hell
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Hmnnn... not believing in the TPU means I don't own a shovel. If, however in my cosmological error, the TPU DOES exist, then I have no one to blame when the "chips" are down!. So I had best be sure that the TPU is merely a pigment of your imagination.
So I had best be sure that the TPU is merely a pigment of your imagination.
Dr. Nosophoros
Active Member
I'd rather shovel manure for eternity than dote over a psychotic narcissist for eternity.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
No, no, no, the choice is not between Spinks and the IPU
(Sorry Spinks, but without TVOR around, I had to do this to someone!!! )
linwood
Well-Known Member
Heres why, If the IPU left plenty of evidence for anyone who genuenly wanted to know if it existed and yet that person choose not to look at the evidence while he/she could for whatever reason, then is it the IPU's fault that the person didnt belive or is the person left without excuse?
She did leave plenty of evidence Steve..
http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm
I have no idea why someone would fail to follow her creed.
If the person ends up in hell its not just because they didnt belive in Hell and make a choice, its because they wilfully ignored what is obvious for whatever reason. Maybe they didnt like the idea of living by the rules.
You sound like a fine upstanding young man.
I`m sure you`ll see the truth inherent in her holiness`s gospels I`ve opened your eyes to and not fall victim to the heresy that leads to eternal manure shoveling.
This topic "choosing to go to hell" cant really be discussed without bringing god into it, How can we discuss weather or not we choose to be punish by God(Hell) without bringing the existance of God into it?
I guess its like saying "do u choose to get a stubbed toe if u kick a wall" yet many people in the discussion dont first belive we have toes and we arnt going to discuss weather our toes exist. - I know that isnt a very good analogy but its all i could come up with on the fly
The analogy is fine but I have a question.
Which toe?
Which toe should we believe in in order to avoid hell?
Should we believe in the big toe because it is the biggest and most powerful?
Or should we believe in the little toe because it was the only one that had the wisdom to go wee wee wee all the way home?
Which toe?
What if I put my faith in the second biggest toe only to find out I was wrong and it really was the little toe?
I`m doomed then right?
So many toes and so little time!!
She did leave plenty of evidence Steve..
http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm
I have no idea why someone would fail to follow her creed.
If the person ends up in hell its not just because they didnt belive in Hell and make a choice, its because they wilfully ignored what is obvious for whatever reason. Maybe they didnt like the idea of living by the rules.
You sound like a fine upstanding young man.
I`m sure you`ll see the truth inherent in her holiness`s gospels I`ve opened your eyes to and not fall victim to the heresy that leads to eternal manure shoveling.
This topic "choosing to go to hell" cant really be discussed without bringing god into it, How can we discuss weather or not we choose to be punish by God(Hell) without bringing the existance of God into it?
I guess its like saying "do u choose to get a stubbed toe if u kick a wall" yet many people in the discussion dont first belive we have toes and we arnt going to discuss weather our toes exist. - I know that isnt a very good analogy but its all i could come up with on the fly
The analogy is fine but I have a question.
Which toe?
Which toe should we believe in in order to avoid hell?
Should we believe in the big toe because it is the biggest and most powerful?
Or should we believe in the little toe because it was the only one that had the wisdom to go wee wee wee all the way home?
Which toe?
What if I put my faith in the second biggest toe only to find out I was wrong and it really was the little toe?
I`m doomed then right?
So many toes and so little time!!
Lycan
Preternatural
What is "obviously" a creation of your god to you, is "obviously" an act of nature or "obviously" a creation of other god(s) to someone else. What ever evidence you see that proves to you of your gods exsistance is not necessarily seen as evidence to another. So how can it be "willfully ignored"?
Either the experiences we have lead us to believe in god(s) or it doesn't... You can't make yourself believe in something, just as you can't honestly internally validate, what to you, is circumstancial or illogical "evidence" for the existance of god(s). Therefore it is not a choice.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Dr. No, I believe you will.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Would anyone else like to explain why they do not find the "Shoveling manure for eternity" argument convincing? I can't get a straight answer from NetDoc.NetDoc said:Hmnnn... not believing in the TPU means I don't own a shovel. If, however in my cosmological error, the TPU DOES exist, then I have no one to blame when the "chips" are down!.
(Note: if the word "blame" appears in any part of your response, chances are you have failed to address what the question is asking.)
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
My dear Spinks...
I must say, I can't blame you for your reaction.
But what is there to explain? How can you explain why you "don't believe" anything? Don't blame me if I have a hard time dealing in negative numbers... they aren't called real for a reason!
I can tell you why I believe in something, but not the converse. I'm sure you see the blame lies elsewhere.
So don't blame me for making a point!
I must say, I can't blame you for your reaction.
But what is there to explain? How can you explain why you "don't believe" anything? Don't blame me if I have a hard time dealing in negative numbers... they aren't called real for a reason!
I can tell you why I believe in something, but not the converse. I'm sure you see the blame lies elsewhere.
So don't blame me for making a point!
Im not just talking about the bible.linwood said:
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20
But all of Creation also. Now this isnt the place to debate Creation/Evolution but i use to except "evolution" and now having looked into it all i feel i was lied to. Many accept the "there is no God" because we dont need him idea because we have evolution to thank for our existence. If you dont belive in God then thats your choice, but considering the implications that arise if there is a God (rules, punishment for evil etc)id say you will want to be sure.
We all have "rules" that we know are wrong to break yet we do it anyway. You dont need to be told lying, stealing and murder is wrong. We have a conscience, its there for a reason, we all know when we have done wrong.linwood said:
Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing....
linwood said:
Good Question!linwood said:This topic "choosing to go to hell" cant really be discussed without bringing god into it, How can we discuss weather or not we choose to be punish by God(Hell) without bringing the existance of God into it?
I guess its like saying "do u choose to get a stubbed toe if u kick a wall" yet many people in the discussion dont first belive we have toes and we arnt going to discuss weather our toes exist. - I know that isnt a very good analogy but its all i could come up with on the fly
The analogy is fine but I have a question.
Which toe?
Which toe should we believe in in order to avoid hell?
Should we believe in the big toe because it is the biggest and most powerful?
Or should we believe in the little toe because it was the only one that had the wisdom to go wee wee wee all the way home?
Which toe?
What if I put my faith in the second biggest toe only to find out I was wrong and it really was the little toe?
I`m doomed then right?
So many toes and so little time!!
Which God?Heres some ideas of how we can know.
Revelation/prophecy.
http://www.raptureready.us/prophecy.htm this has a list of prophecy's concerning the Messiah which were all fulfilled with Jesus.
Logic
When comparing to other religions.http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10859 is one example.
Ill start a thread with this Question in mind, which God? where Gods existance is assumed and we just discuss which god is God.
You think anyone is going to rule in Hell, you think thats an option for people? Gods punishment wont be pleasent, i dont picture satan sitting on a throne giving orders. He will be burning, getting what he deserves. God will see to it that evil is punished.Melody said:Isn't that a quote from Dante's Inferno? Oh no...that was "better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven."
linwood
Well-Known Member
Im not just talking about the bible.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20
You`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion that you`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion that you`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion....
See where this goes?
Round and round again.
You believe the creation of the world was done by YHWH because his book tells you so.
You are talking about the Bible.
Many others will tell you that Allah created the world and his book shows how this is obvious or "given" just as yours does.
We all have "rules" that we know are wrong to break yet we do it anyway. You dont need to be told lying, stealing and murder is wrong. We have a conscience, its there for a reason, we all know when we have done wrong.
Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing....
Yes we do all have rules but these rules are not inherent as you claim we do indeed need to be told of them.
The Bible tells you of yours, I came to my own conclusions and I`m willing to bet every coin I have we would not agree on the subjective or objective frame of our own individual morality.
No laws were ever "Written on my Heart".
I wrote them myself with my mind.
Good Question!
Which God?
Heres some ideas of how we can know.
Revelation/prophecy.
Been there, done that, not impressed.
I`m not a big Nostradamus fan either.
Ill start a thread with this Question in mind, which God? where Gods existance is assumed and we just discuss which god is God.
I`ll play
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20
You`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion that you`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion that you`re not talking about the Bible yet you use Biblical verse to support the assertion....
See where this goes?
Round and round again.
You believe the creation of the world was done by YHWH because his book tells you so.
You are talking about the Bible.
Many others will tell you that Allah created the world and his book shows how this is obvious or "given" just as yours does.
We all have "rules" that we know are wrong to break yet we do it anyway. You dont need to be told lying, stealing and murder is wrong. We have a conscience, its there for a reason, we all know when we have done wrong.
Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing....
Yes we do all have rules but these rules are not inherent as you claim we do indeed need to be told of them.
The Bible tells you of yours, I came to my own conclusions and I`m willing to bet every coin I have we would not agree on the subjective or objective frame of our own individual morality.
No laws were ever "Written on my Heart".
I wrote them myself with my mind.
Good Question!
Heres some ideas of how we can know.
Revelation/prophecy.
Been there, done that, not impressed.
I`m not a big Nostradamus fan either.
Ill start a thread with this Question in mind, which God? where Gods existance is assumed and we just discuss which god is God.
I`ll play
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I've started a new thread about this here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10896NetDoc said:
I see your pointlinwood said:
but the reason i choose that verse was becuase it too is pointing outside of scriptures as proof that God exists.I was trying to show that i belive in God or a Creator not just because of the bible but I think Creation = Creator just like Building = Builder. Thats the point i was trying to make.
linwood said:
Ok so if i decided that it was ok to murder you because they are the rules that i wrote myself with my mind. Would that be ok? Afterall why are your rules better then mine? Also you cant use a "rule" like its ok if it dosnt hurt anyone, because what if in my head my rule was its ok if you do hurt someone.linwood said:
Did you need to be told not to murder? or Rape people? and if someone does do these things because noone "told" them they shouldnt does that excuse them? and besides if someone tells you not too why is thier rules "the rules".
Maybe you think that it all stops with your country and the rules they make.
What if another Hitler got into power, does it then become ok for that countrys people to murder?
linwood
Well-Known Member
Ok so if i decided that it was ok to murder you because they are the rules that i wrote myself with my mind. Would that be ok?
Nope that would be against the rules I wrote with my mind.
Afterall why are your rules better then mine?
Because I`m the one who has to live with them, not you.
My rules will always be better for me
Also you cant use a "rule" like its ok if it dosnt hurt anyone, because what if in my head my rule was its ok if you do hurt someone.
You can`t tell me what rules I can and cannot use.
I write my own rules remember?
What would you base this rule on, the rule that it`s ok to hurt someone?
This is why I`m sometimes thankful for religion because there are people out their who are unable to form a logical self supporting moral system on their own.
religion gives them one on a silver platter and we`re all better for it in some ways.
Did you need to be told not to murder? or Rape people? and if someone does do these things because noone "told" them they shouldnt does that excuse them? and besides if someone tells you not too why is thier rules "the rules".
No it does not excuse them within our society but it does in some.
Their rules aren`t always "the rules."
There are many rules and laws within our culture that I willfully break on a daily basis because they are either irrelevant or have no bearing on my moral position.
I don`t abide by the laws because I`m told to.
I either abide by a law because it meshes with my own morality or out of fear.
I don`t scare easy so I do indeed break many of the rules of our culture.
Maybe you think that it all stops with your country and the rules they make.
What if another Hitler got into power, does it then become ok for that countrys people to murder?
It doesn`t stop with my country.
It stops with me and those I`m directly responsible for.
Hitlers acts were immoral to me because they disregarded the morality of others.
This is against my moral code.
It`s interesting that you use Hitler as an example because his actions were directly influenced by his own moral code.
His attempt to inforce his brand of morality or belief on those who didn`t share was why he was stopped.
Morality is not objective.
Nope that would be against the rules I wrote with my mind.
Afterall why are your rules better then mine?
Because I`m the one who has to live with them, not you.
My rules will always be better for me
Also you cant use a "rule" like its ok if it dosnt hurt anyone, because what if in my head my rule was its ok if you do hurt someone.
You can`t tell me what rules I can and cannot use.
I write my own rules remember?
What would you base this rule on, the rule that it`s ok to hurt someone?
This is why I`m sometimes thankful for religion because there are people out their who are unable to form a logical self supporting moral system on their own.
religion gives them one on a silver platter and we`re all better for it in some ways.
Did you need to be told not to murder? or Rape people? and if someone does do these things because noone "told" them they shouldnt does that excuse them? and besides if someone tells you not too why is thier rules "the rules".
No it does not excuse them within our society but it does in some.
Their rules aren`t always "the rules."
There are many rules and laws within our culture that I willfully break on a daily basis because they are either irrelevant or have no bearing on my moral position.
I don`t abide by the laws because I`m told to.
I either abide by a law because it meshes with my own morality or out of fear.
I don`t scare easy so I do indeed break many of the rules of our culture.
Maybe you think that it all stops with your country and the rules they make.
What if another Hitler got into power, does it then become ok for that countrys people to murder?
It doesn`t stop with my country.
It stops with me and those I`m directly responsible for.
Hitlers acts were immoral to me because they disregarded the morality of others.
This is against my moral code.
It`s interesting that you use Hitler as an example because his actions were directly influenced by his own moral code.
His attempt to inforce his brand of morality or belief on those who didn`t share was why he was stopped.
Morality is not objective.