"Choosing" to Go to Hell

[DianeVera]

Yes. Absolutely. I don't see why I would be different, and since I believe that we all will experience God, I firmly believe that is the case for me. The qualitative difference is how will we experience Him. One person experiences Him as pain and another as peace.

What I believe makes the difference is the grace inside the Church, the Eucharist, etc. which can graft us in. That's the only qualitative difference I hold from others. In fact, I've not been able to be baptized into the Church...therefore I'm potentially in the same boat as everyone else.

Why do I hold it? You can probably guess . Simply because I believe Christianity. If I didn't, then I wouldn't affirm the preceding. I simply wouldn't believe I had a source of knowledge on the issue.

Why have you not been able to be baptized into the Church, even though you apparently do agree with their doctrine?

 

[No*s]

Why have you not been able to be baptized into the Church, even though you apparently do agree with their doctrine?

I cannot regularly attend. The closest church is an hour and a half away. I do not own a vehicle, and I don't have any means of procuring one in the near future .

 

[Scuba Pete]

Most people want to blame others for their predicaments. The man blames his mom because he got caught driving drunk. The serial killer blames society for his actions. Must we blame God for our inability to see him or our desire to do what serperates us from him?

Heaven and Hell refer to a quality of life. At some time ALL of us are in Hell. We are ALL spiritually DEAD. We may not know it, but we are. It's like all of us trying to swim to Hawaii... We get into the water on the california coast and start swimming. Some seem to be going in the right direction, but most are heading north or south withour realizing it. So God comes out in a boat to pull our butts out of the water.

But I don't believe in a boat... you're gonna die.

I don't like the color of the boat... you're gonna die.

Why can't you just let me swim... you're gonna die.

Getting in your boat is too narrow minded... you're gonna die.

All you have to do is to take hold of the hand that is offered you. Don't debate why it has to be HIS hand, and not someone else's. Just take hold of salvation and don't let go!

 

[DianeVera]

I cannot regularly attend. The closest church is an hour and a half away. I do not own a vehicle, and I don't have any means of procuring one in the near future .

How do you feel about belonging to a religion in which your eternal destiny is believed to depend on (or at least be affected by) your partaking of certain sacraments that you are unable to partake of?

Why did you convert to Orthodox Christianity anyway? (Perhaps that should be a topic for a separate thread, if you haven't already covered it elsewhere.)

 

[Steve]

Hi all
Heres how i see it.

1) A nonbeliever cannot "choose" to be apart or against something whose existence he/she disputes. Only those who believe in the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn in the first place can make a decision as to their loyalty to her.
2) "Free choice" is negated by offering reward in the afterlife for obedience and punishment for disobedience.

Still, even thoughI have no reason to believe the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, I go around saying she does, just in case. After all, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing in her!

If i showed you a painting that would be proof there was a painter, if i pointed to a building the building itself would be proof there was a builder, even though you wouldn't need to see or touch the painter or builder you could know for sure that there was one. Now if i turn my attention to all of creation, logically it shows that there must be a Creator. Now if we are Created then the Creator gets to set the rules weather we like them or not. Its these rules that all of us have violated because we so often chose to go against our conscience and do somthing we instictivly know is wrong (eg we dont need to be told that murder, theft or lying is wrong). Yet who of us can claim to have never lied or stolen at least once throughout our lives? We all are indebt to Gods law. If God is good and just then he will see to it that justice is served, he cant compromise on sin because then he wouldnt be good, he would be like a corrupt judge that overlooks whats wrong and lets the criminal go free. This is why i belive that hell is exists, because i belive that there is a Creator and that he will have his Judgement Day, his day of Justice. When each one of us stands befor him we will be judged according to Gods standard, it wont be by our standard that we are judged by but Gods perfect standard. This is why i belive we should be so greatful to God for providing a sacrifice. We cant save ourselfs, we all stand guilty, i doubt there would be many who would dare to claim to be perfect. In my mind it can be summed up with this - We broke the law, Jesus paid our fine.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Most people want to blame others for their predicaments. The man blames his mom because he got caught driving drunk. The serial killer blames society for his actions. Must we blame God for our inability to see him or our desire to do what serperates us from him?

Heaven and Hell refer to a quality of life. At some time ALL of us are in Hell. We are ALL spiritually DEAD. We may not know it, but we are. It's like all of us trying to swim to Hawaii... We get into the water on the california coast and start swimming. Some seem to be going in the right direction, but most are heading north or south withour realizing it. So God comes out in a boat to pull our butts out of the water.

But I don't believe in a boat... you're gonna die.

I don't like the color of the boat... you're gonna die.

Why can't you just let me swim... you're gonna die.

Getting in your boat is too narrow minded... you're gonna die.

All you have to do is to take hold of the hand that is offered you. Don't debate why it has to be HIS hand, and not someone else's. Just take hold of salvation and don't let go!

Oh dear, oh dear! My friend, I'm afraid you missed the point completely. Allow me to demonstrate:

Most people want to blame others for their predicaments. The man blames his mom because he got caught driving drunk. The serial killer blames society for his actions. Must we blame The Invisible Pink Unicorn for our inability to see her or our desire to do what serperates us from her?

Brushing and Shoveling refer to a quality of life. At some time ALL of us are Shoveling. We are ALL Shoveling MANURE. We may not know it, but we are. It's like all of us trying to swim to Hawaii... We get into the water on the california coast and start swimming. Some seem to be going in the right direction, but most are heading north or south withour realizing it. So The Invisible Pink Unicorn comes out in a boat to pull our butts out of the water.

But I don't believe in a boat... you're gonna die.

I don't like the color of the boat... you're gonna die.

Why can't you just let me swim... you're gonna die.

Getting in your boat is too narrow minded... you're gonna die.

All you have to do is to take hold of the hoof that is offered you. Don't debate why it has to be HER hoof, and not someone else's. Just take hold of salvation and don't let go!

Has the preceeding convinced you, NetDoc, to swallow your pride and allow the Invisible Pink Unicorn into your heart? Why or why not?

 

[Scuba Pete]

My dear Spinkles...

Do you blame the Pink Unicorn for not believeing in him? Do you blame the Pink Unicorn for "condemning you to hell"???

If you don't believe in "hell" then why would you even care?

But you do care, which makes one wonder what you really believe?

 

[No*s]

How do you feel about belonging to a religion in which your eternal destiny is believed to depend on (or at least be affected by) your partaking of certain sacraments that you are unable to partake of?

Why did you convert to Orthodox Christianity anyway? (Perhaps that should be a topic for a separate thread, if you haven't already covered it elsewhere.)

Well, Orthodoxy is exclucivist, but I am not without hope. God's Holy Spirit works from without men outside of Orthodoxy to transform them, but inside Orthodoxy, the Spirit can take up residence. Still...it can be somewhat tense to desire to go participate, but be unable to do so. If I can ever complete my move back to TX, it will let me finish things. I will be close enough .

As for my reasons, I covered them here in brief:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10044

 

[Mr Spinkles]

My dear Spinkles...

Do you blame the Pink Unicorn for not believeing in him? Do you blame the Pink Unicorn for "condemning you to hell"???

If you don't believe in "hell" then why would you even care?

But you do care, which makes one wonder what you really believe?

Please answer the question.

Has the preceeding convinced you, NetDoc, to swallow your pride and allow the Invisible Pink Unicorn into your heart? Why or why not?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I make it habit to not answer "rhetorical" questions!!!

BUT... to humor you:

No, I don't blame the pinko unicorn for me not believing in him. I FULLY assume all responsibility for my actions and/or inactions. I have made these decisions from my own personal experiences and beliefs and do not hold you, the originator of this thread nor the management of this forum in any way responsible for my beliefs or the consequences of such said belief(s).

 

[Steve]

Hi all
Mr_Spinkles do you belive there is a God and are just unsure which one? Or do you belive there is no "God" and that everything in the physical world just happend to create itself from absoulutley nothing via random chance? Just curious.
The way i see it is that it is self evident that there must be a God. Unlike the Pink Unicorn it dosnt take faith to belive there is a God, just logic.
It takes faith when u ask God for somthing, afterall he owes us nothing but loves us anyway

 

[Scott1]

The way i see it is that it is self evident that there must be a God. Unlike the Pink Unicorn it dosnt take faith to belive there is a God, just logic.

Oh boy..... this is gonna be fun to watch..... be nice Spinks!:biglaugh:

 

[Pah]

Get your popcorn popped and pull up a chair, Scott

Hi all
Mr_Spinkles do you belive there is a God and are just unsure which one? Or do you belive there is no "God" and that everything in the physical world just happend to create itself from absoulutley nothing via random chance? Just curious.

As an aside, Steve, There is no god(s) - no godess(es) - no new age forces. It would be hard to pick from nothing.

But I just had to comment on creation from nothing. You see, Steve, science knows quite a bit about what happened just after the Big Bang - if that's what you think is what we think of as creation from nothing, isn't it?. Science also has most of the answers to what happened since and there is no "hand of God" in the whole sheebang. A few gaps in the knowledge admittedly but there is no logic, no science for putting God in those gaps. God of the gaps have a history of being swallowed up by science - less and less is unknown. God's regulated today is to smaller and smaller gaps.

But you say, "What about God making the Big bang?" Sorry there too, Steve. The Big Bang was the colission of branes which are composed of strings which are the basic building units of all material and forces. So what you are left with is a God who makes strings - hehehe - at least for now.

The way i see it is that it is self evident that there must be a God. Unlike the Pink Unicorn it dosnt take faith to belive there is a God, just logic.
It takes faith when u ask God for somthing, afterall he owes us nothing but loves us anyway

I would agree you have "evidence" for God but what is boils down to is revelation and if you look at http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/article.php?a=35 you will find that revelation is a poor indicator of truth. That takes care of your assertion by logic.

It really takes as much faith to believe in the existence of God as it does in Her Holiness, The Invisible Pink Unicorn. But if you don't have faith in Her Holiness, then you will miss the glories of joining her in the Stable of Heavenly Truth. Sorry about that.

 

[Steve]

Get your popcorn popped and pull up a chair, Scott

But I just had to comment on creation from nothing. You see, Steve, science knows quite a bit about what happened just after the Big Bang - if that's what you think is what we think of as creation from nothing, isn't it?. Science also has most of the answers to what happened since and there is no "hand of God" in the whole sheebang. A few gaps in the knowledge admittedly but there is no logic, no science for putting God in those gaps. God of the gaps have a history of being swallowed up by science - less and less is unknown. God's regulated today is to smaller and smaller gaps.

Have you ever looked at the supposed "evidence" or what science "knows" as you put it, objectivly, scientifically in the true sence of the word. Evolution is a theory that is far from fact. I use to belive in the theory until i looked at what the "evidence" supporting it is. Just looking at one aspect of the whole evolutionary theory is ennough to raise more then ennough suspicion.
I mentioned this idea earlier in the thread, if i showed u a painting you wouldnt need to see the painter because the painting is plenty of proof that there is a painter. It is simple logic, however evolution tries to go around it by for instance saying that all life come from a basic form of bacteria. It says that just add a few mutations that increase information in the DNA now and then and over a huge amont of time this proves we evolved. If you can belive that the incredible amount of information that is in our DNA came about by random chance then you have a very stong faith and your faith goes against logic. Have you ever read about the mathamatical chance of even simple bacteria forming? Or about the massive number of symbiotic relationships throughout the universe. Have you just considered that bats or dolfins would have to develope things like sonar etc just by chance, its absurd. And you say i dont have logic backing my belifes! You say "a few gaps in the knowledge admittedly" as if they almost have it all sorted. As if they have enough evidence that you can say without doubt there is no "gods". You cant tell me that you belive this happend and that you dont need faith.
Thats just a simplified look at a few things, the trend continues throughout the varios evolution theorys, they say well it may have happend or we belive or we sumise, ive looked into it and i wont be fooled again, i use to belive it.
What about Matter itself? Did the Massive ammount of matter create itself? If you say yes then thats "supernatural" and outside the scope of "science". Maybe soon they will come up with a "theory" on how matter could form itself, maybe they already have, and certainly it will be swallowed by many as if it were fact aswell.

But you say, "What about God making the Big bang?" Sorry there too, Steve. The Big Bang was the colission of branes which are composed of strings which are the basic building units of all material and forces. So what you are left with is a God who makes strings - hehehe - at least for now.

I wouldnt say i belive God used the Big bang either, that theory is just as flawed as the rest of them.

Now maybe you have looked into the Creation/Evolution debate befor from both sides. But if you havnt consider this when ever you read somthing that supports evolution its likely that its written by someone who belives in it. So how bout look at the stuff out there that dosnt support evolution admittedly it will also be biased but against it but there is plenty of legitimate "science" that shows how flawed the varies theories are.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/infotheory.asp
Read some of the articles about information theory. Or other articles from that site.
www.answersingenesis.org/docs/217.asp - the chance of a cell forming.
I dont see how you can belive evolution as fact, and its not because i havnt been open to it like i said i use to belive it took place, I especially dont know how you could belive it to the point where you say theres no God.

 

[Pah]

Steve,

Lets take your argument to another thread. I answered your post but you want to continue evolution. That is not the topic of the thread and we do a diservice to it.

I see you did not answer my points about faith

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I make it habit to not answer "rhetorical" questions!!!

Hehe.

No, I don't blame the pinko unicorn for me not believing in him. I FULLY assume all responsibility for my actions and/or inactions. I have made these decisions from my own personal experiences and beliefs and do not hold you, the originator of this thread nor the management of this forum in any way responsible for my beliefs or the consequences of such said belief(s).

Nor do I blame anyone for me not believing in God. However, I did not ask if you blamed the Invisible Pink Unicorn for your disbelief in Her. I asked if my post from earlier had convinced you to accept the IPU into your heart, and why or why not. If you feel like answering this question, let me know.

Mr_Spinkles do you belive there is a God and are just unsure which one? Or do you belive there is no "God" and that everything in the physical world just happend to create itself from absoulutley nothing via random chance? Just curious.
The way i see it is that it is self evident that there must be a God. Unlike the Pink Unicorn it dosnt take faith to belive there is a God, just logic.

Hi there Steve, and welcome to the forum. To answer your question, I do not believe in any gods.

However, this thread really isn't about whether or not God or the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists...it's about "Choosing to go to Hell". As I argued in the OP, nonbelievers do not truly "choose" to shovel Her Holiness the Invisible Pink Unicorn's manure for eternity, because they do not believe such a thing will happen. (Nor do they defy the IPU...you can't defy the wishes of something you do not believe exists.) Furthermore, free choice is negated for believers in the IPU since she offers them reward for obedience and punishment for disobedience. This same argument can be made in regards to the gods of other religions.

 

[Steve]

Hi there Steve, and welcome to the forum. To answer your question, I do not believe in any gods.

However, this thread really isn't about whether or not God or the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists...it's about "Choosing to go to Hell". As I argued in the OP, nonbelievers do not truly "choose" to shovel Her Holiness the Invisible Pink Unicorn's manure for eternity, because they do not believe such a thing will happen. (Nor do they defy the IPU...you can't defy the wishes of something you do not believe exists.)

Hi, thx, this forum is quite interesting .
I see your point however i think your argument is flawed (i really mean no offence)
Heres why, If the IPU left plenty of evidence for anyone who genuenly wanted to know if it existed and yet that person choose not to look at the evidence while he/she could for whatever reason, then is it the IPU's fault that the person didnt belive or is the person left without excuse?
I belive that most of us at some point in our lives have looked around and wondered if there is a God, I belive all of this increadibly complex creation testifies to an awsome Creator. Now i know this thread isnt about evolution/creation however my point would be that if someone did look at creation and thought to them selves "there must be someone(God) behind all this" then they will look into it all with the the real intention of finding out who it is. Also from here this person will wonder if there are any rules that the creator intends for Humanity to follow, and even by instinct we have these rules within us, Ie our conscience. eg We know by instict that we shouldnt Kill, rape, steal, Lie etc and yet mankind does it anyway which then brings us to how we will be seen by our Creator when our time on earth expires. Hence Judgement day and Hell for those who havnt lived up to Gods standard.

Now this may sound offensive but im really just trying to be honest afterall the point in this forum is to discuss our belifes. If the person ends up in hell its not just because they didnt belive in Hell and make a choice, its because they wilfully ignored what is obvious for whatever reason. Maybe they didnt like the idea of living by the rules.

However, this thread really isn't about whether or not God or the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists...it's about "Choosing to go to Hell".

This topic "choosing to go to hell" cant really be discussed without bringing god into it, How can we discuss weather or not we choose to be punish by God(Hell) without bringing the existance of God into it?
I guess its like saying "do u choose to get a stubbed toe if u kick a wall" yet many people in the discussion dont first belive we have toes and we arnt going to discuss weather our toes exist. - I know that isnt a very good analogy but its all i could come up with on the fly

Furthermore, free choice is negated for believers in the IPU since she offers them reward for obedience and punishment for disobedience.

It depends why God gave us free choice, if he gave us freechioce because he wanted us to love him (and it isnt love if u dont have freewill) and he expects us to obey his commandments out of respect, love and Godly Fear then we still have free choice.

Lol ill try another analogy - Picture a married couple, now if the wife has the option (the free choice) to cheat on the husband if she wants but chose's not too, that displays real love, loyalty etc
But if the wife Never has the option, she cant choise to cheat or she is "programed" not too then will the Husband still feel like the wife Loves and respects him just as much as if she choise to stick by him?

I guess im trying to say look at the idea behind freewill from Gods perspective.

You have your very own freewill you decide what you want to belive and how you live your life, but what you belive and how you live your life wont change weather there is a God or not. Now i know that pricipal goes for me aswell, thats why i really want to find the truth why im still alive (and i do belive that i have found the truth).


Heres a verse from the bible which is along the lines of what im trying to say.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Pink Unicorns? What have all you been smoking?

 

[Pah]

Pink Unicorns? What have all you been smoking?

Well, it's not the incense from Church

 

[Scuba Pete]

Mr Spinks... the answer is right there:

No! Nein! Hyet! Non! Uh-uh! No way! Not yes! Not sure how else to communicate "no" unless I resort to David Spade's "a-no-ha" etc, etc.