Can You Choose What You Believe?

[Koldo]

How do we choose what we need/want in life? By past experience. By imagination. By intuition. By the desire to repeat some of these, and to avoid others.

How does any of that relate to wanting something to be true ?

Same as any cognitive entity; via pain or pleasure, via potential for freedom, autonomy, security, and opportunity.
It (the positive value) will have happened to me.

But on what grounds have you chosen to believe that your memory is accurate as far as having ever experienced pain or pleasure in a given circumstance ? Or even further than that, why, how and on what basis did you choose to believe that you are actually experiencing a positive or negative sensation at any given moment ?

 

[PureX]

How does any of that relate to wanting something to be true ?

Someone you love tells you that they love you. You want it to be true. You could look for (and probably find) evidence to disbelieve them, or you could accept their word as all the evidence you need. One of these outcomes you want, the other one you do not want. So you choose the evidence that gives you the outcome you want. I don't see why you're having so much difficulty understanding this. People make these kinds of decisions all the time, regarding very important issues, and regarding very insignificant ones. It's common practice among humans. So common as to be unavoidable.

But on what grounds have you chosen to believe that your memory is accurate as far as having ever experienced pain or pleasure in a given circumstance ?

The memory of the experience of pain or pleasure (and the many related tangents of these) are the "grounds".

Or even further than that, why, how and on what basis did you choose to believe that you are actually experiencing a positive or negative sensation at any given moment ?

Why would I need any more "basis" than my own experience of it? You seem to be grasping for a straw that isn't there to be grasped. Pain and pleasure are their own innate values. They don't need to be validated externally. It's like asking how do you know you exist. You know because you were able to ask.

 

[Koldo]

Someone you love tells you that they love you. You want it to be true. You could look for (and probably find) evidence to disbelieve them, or you could accept their word as all the evidence you need. One of these outcomes you want, the other one you do not want. So you choose the evidence that gives you the outcome you want. I don't see why you're having so much difficulty understanding this. People make these kinds of decisions all the time, regarding very important issues, and regarding very insignificant ones. It's common practice among humans. So common as to be unavoidable.

As I see it, people often don't choose to believe in tinha, they just believe in things. They don't choose the evidence, they just feel compelled by it or not.

You told me you see it differently. You see people choosing what they believe on the basis of what they want to be true. So I am still trying to understand, if that is the case, how it is possible for a wife, at the same time, not want to be cheated on and believe her husband is cheating on her. Her not wanting to be cheated on should make it impossible for her to believe she is being cheated on.

The memory of the experience of pain or pleasure (and the many related tangents of these) are the "grounds".

How come if what you believe to be your memory is a belief ?

Why would I need any more "basis" than my own experience of it? You seem to be grasping for a straw that isn't there to be grasped. Pain and pleasure are their own innate values. They don't need to be validated externally. It's like asking how do you know you exist. You know because you were able to ask.

It would be self-contradictory to claim you don't exist. But my point is more like: The claim that you are experiencing pain or pleasure is a belief. How can you validate this belief even internally ? Even validations are beliefs.

 

[PureX]

As I see it, people often don't choose to believe in tinha, they just believe in things. They don't choose the evidence, they just feel compelled by it or not.

Not being consciously aware of making a decision does not men that a decision has not been made.

You told me you see it differently. You see people choosing what they believe on the basis of what they want to be true. So I am still trying to understand, if that is the case, how it is possible for a wife, at the same time, not want to be cheated on and believe her husband is cheating on her. Her not wanting to be cheated on should make it impossible for her to believe she is being cheated on.

For her, not being played is more important than keeping the player. We are often forced to choose between results that we don't want. Thus: "the lesser of two evils".

It would be self-contradictory to claim you don't exist. But my point is more like: The claim that you are experiencing pain or pleasure is a belief.

What we experience is what we experience. It is information coming IN. How we cognate that experience is that information being PROCESSED. And what we believe about what is happening is the result. Choice is involved by various means and to various degrees all along the way.

 

[Koldo]

Not being consciously aware of making a decision does not men that a decision has not been made.
For her, not being played is more important than keeping the player. We are often forced to choose between results that we don't want. Thus: "the lesser of two evils".
What we experience is what we experience. It is information coming IN. How we cognate that experience is that information being PROCESSED. And what we believe about what is happening is the result. Choice is involved by various means and to various degrees all along the way.

In what sense a choice is a choice if you are not consciously involved on the decision making process ?

 

[PureX]

In what sense a choice is a choice if you are not consciously involved on the decision making process ?

In the sense that you choose one of several options.

 

[Koldo]

In the sense that you choose one of several options.

I don't understand how that answers my question. How can you be choosing one of several options if you are not consciously making the decision ?

 

[PureX]

I don't understand how that answers my question. How can you be choosing one of several options if you are not consciously making the decision ?

Intuition, habit, proclivity, whatever. We human do lots of things without consciously thinking about it.

 

[Koldo]

Intuition, habit, proclivity, whatever. We human do lots of things without consciously thinking about it.

And whenever we do it without consciously thinking about it, I don't call it a choice. Why do you ?

 

[PureX]

And whenever we do it without consciously thinking about it, I don't call it a choice. Why do you ?

When we make choices, unconsciously, we call it an unconscious choice. It's a thing; really.

 

[Koldo]

When we make choices, unconsciously, we call it an unconscious choice. It's a thing; really.

We who ? I don't. Why do you ?

 

[atanu]

Can you choose what you believe?

To be clear, I'm not asking if you can choose your religion or if you can choose what to label yourself or your views.

Can you choose what to believe or disbelieve? Or are such core convictions or biases inherent in the individual based on experiences? Or are they based on something else? If so, what?

I think it depends on what one considers "I" to be. If the notion that the 'body-mind-intellect' is "I", then one cannot.

 

[PureX]

The only reason some people think they cannot choose their beliefs is because they are unwilling to recognize that their beliefs are opinions about reality, and not reality itself.

 

[night912]

Green pill wasn't a choice. He did however chose to take the red pill, as well as choose to not take the blue pill. Or did he?

View attachment 38033

Exactly. So you can't choose what's not there.

 

[Windwalker]

Exactly. So you can't choose what's not there.

Correct. So you choose what is there by default. It's still a choice, passive as it may be.

 

[PureX]

Correct. So you choose what is there by default. It's still a choice, passive as it may be.

Also, what we think is there, or not there, can never logically be certain, because we are not omniscient. I just parked my car in the garage and came into the house. I "believe" that my car is still there, in the garage. But even though I feel very sure that it is, I can't logically be 100% certain that it is. It is possible that the car I drove home was somehow not my car, or that the car has somehow been removed from my garage without my knowing. My "belief" that the car is there, is in fact my opinion regarding the whereabouts of my car. Once I recognize this, I could theoretically change my opinion if I wanted to. We humans live in the world via reasoned probabilities, not knowledge. So if we change our reasons, or our method of reasoning, we can come to presume different probabilities, and therefor different "beliefs" about the world we live in.

 

[night912]

Correct. So you choose what is there by default. It's still a choice, passive as it may be.

If it's like that, then you just contradicted what you've said, since you did not choose what is not there.

I think you are confusing things together here. Of course, yes, there is a choice that we can make to set aside our beliefs and truly try to see through another perspective. Most of us simply choose to not make that choice and try to see outside of our own perspectives and belief systems. And that itself is also a choice. As I said, it's all choices, include the choice to not examine the programming, happening at the unconscious level, influenced or 'conditioned' by other factors such as the sense of security feeling threatened.

I am of course not the only person who recognizes this. The Existentialist philosopher, Jean Paul Sartre said, "In one sense choice is possible, but what is not possible is not to choose. I can always choose, but I must know that if I do not choose, that is still a choice." So as I've been saying, simply doing nothing and letting the program run unexamined, is a choice. To not consciously choose an alternative, is to subconsciously continue to choose what you have.

 

[Windwalker]

If it's like that, then you just contradicted what you've said, since you did not choose what is not there.

I don't follow the reasoning. If you know of another option, then you can choose between the current option or the alternative. If you don't know of other available options, then you choose the one before you. If you made no choice at all, then you would halt to a standstill. You would be in stasis. But even that is a choice, as we are choosing to freeze, or "not choose".

One could argue they "have no choice" but to follow or believe something, but that's more a figure of speech. Without alternative, then they are choosing to follow the only thing available. Believing is always a choice. And not believing is also a choice. We choose to believe or disbelieve in things, or believe in other things.

No matter what it is, or what other options are or are not available, when we pick it up and purchase it for ourselves, we are choosing to consume it. Anyone who participates in the system, is choosing to do so. If they choose to drop out of it altogether, than that too is still a choice. If they choose to "not choose", than that is a choice as well.

 

[night912]

I don't follow the reasoning. If you know of another option, then you can choose between the current option or the alternative. If you don't know of other available options, then you choose the one before you. If you made no choice at all, then you would halt to a standstill. You would be in stasis. But even that is a choice, as we are choosing to freeze, or "not choose".

One could argue they "have no choice" but to follow or believe something, but that's more a figure of speech. Without alternative, then they are choosing to follow the only thing available. Believing is always a choice. And not believing is also a choice. We choose to believe or disbelieve in things, or believe in other things.

Sorry, but dismissing the reason as being just a "figure of speech" when it shows why your logic is flawed, is not what you called logical.

No matter what it is, or what other options are or are not available, when we pick it up and purchase it for ourselves, we are choosing to consume it. Anyone who participates in the system, is choosing to do so. If they choose to drop out of it altogether, than that too is still a choice. If they choose to "not choose", than that is a choice as well.

That's a contradiction.

 

[Windwalker]

Sorry, but dismissing the reason as being just a "figure of speech" when it shows why your logic is flawed, is not what you called logical.

It is in fact a figure of speech. "I don't have a choice", is to really state, "I don't have any other choice but to choose this one. It's the only option of available choices".

If you pick up the product, than you have made your choice. If you choose to not pick it up, then that too is a choice. It's choices all the way and all the way down. This isn't that difficult to follow.

That's a contradiction.

Explain how it is.