can a person's moral nature change?

[Eddi]

Yes.

What is your method of measure?

The method of measure would be the results of a thorough and objective audit of an individual and the life they have lived to assess their character and motoivations, to arrive at a judgment - of the kind that only God can perform, as only he has the necessary perspective - he can take account of a whole lifetime, not just a snapshot of a life taken at one given moment

Although we humans could I am sure somehow come up with our own methods, it just wouldn't be as accurate and objective as God's

But at the end of the day, as a Christian, I still believe in justification by faith alone

But I don't believe that the good people who are not justified by faith go to hell, or are somehow annihilated because that would be unjust and I believe God to be just, so perhaps that makes me some kind of universalist

I have no idea what happens to such people, I can only speculate

 

[Heyo]

Not at all, I believe people can be lead astray from their true nature

But that they cannot willingly change their nature

And how do you detect that? Your first claim is

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

How is that compatible with a "true nature"?

You speak of a continuum in another post, and people being more or less good or bad. Even accepting for the sake of argument that there is such a thing as a "moral nature" (I think there is not), you can't pin a point on that line to a person. It would be more like a moral range.
I guess there may be people who are incapable of the most heinous immoral acts. They may act immoral but only to an extend. The same person may also be incapable of the most heroic acts.
So, if you have a scale from 10 to -10, the "moral nature" of a person is the range (e.g. [8/-7]) in which they can act.

 

[robocop (actually)]

People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change

I absolutely believe a person can change themselves, for me with Christ's atonement. Me and many others have said I have improved tremendously over the years.

 

[Clara Tea]

Christians believe in being born again (accepting God, following God's laws). That means that one can not believe at one time, and believe at another. I suppose the opposite is true, as well (a person who believes in Christianity could suddenly lose faith).

Lucifer used to be an angel, but later became bad.

Young children who die go to heaven, but as they learn, in heaven, they might become corrupt and be evicted from heaven. I wonder if the same is true of adult angels?

I don't believe things work the way scriptures say they do. I think that God is made of billions of souls, and almost all are good, but some are bad. I think that God puts a tiny piece of himself in each of us (except those few without souls), and that soul guides our evolved monkey-like body to do good or bad. Of course bad souls go to hell, and good souls go to heaven. Free will is necessary to make sure that the goodness or badness of the soul guides it to heaven or hell. All this, in my opinion, is a purification system for God.

Pastors would throw a fit if anyone suggests that God is anything but pure good. Yet, look at what God allows.....Satan, pain, death, death of Jesus, animals preying on other animals, stink, etc. Would a purely good God make us flawed humans then blame us for being flawed and kick us out of Eden, flood the world, and destroy sinful cities?

But, if I am right, and the soul guides us, is it possible to make a bad soul good? Apparently goodness can be learned.

Similarly, badness can be induced by temptation with fear and lies. Take for example, God's commandment "thou shalt not kill." When attacked by al Qaeda terrorists, we should have followed God's laws "turn the other cheek" "not kill," but, instead, the country of Iraq (which, as it turned out, was innocent of terrorism), was attacked in our lifetime (twice...once by the dragon and once by the beast, as predicted in Revelation), and fear of future terrorist attacks tempted us into defying God (a very great sin that resulted in COVID (Revelation 15), and eventually God will destroy all life on earth.

W. Bush issued phony orange alerts to get citizens of America to attack North Korea (though at the time, it was a peaceful nation). Tom Ridge, director of Homeland Security, was the only one who had authority to issue such alerts, and he said that the alerts didn't come from him, but did come from his superiors (that would be President W. Bush and VP Dick Cheney). So, it is Satan's fear and deception that prompted war in defiance of God's commands.

By using Satan's fear and deception, good souls can be corrupted to go to hell instead of heaven.

 

[blü 2]

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

Or it means they're under great stress, financial or interpersonal, or have developed an addiction thanks to Reckitt Benckiser, or maybe have a brain disorder eg PTSD, bi-polarity, depression, Parkinson's, schizophrenia. Or maybe some church or cult has got hold of them and preyed on their vulnerability.

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change

I think that's simply not true.

I can recall the daughter of a business acquaintance of mine who was a normal teen until she got hooked on heroin, and became a reclusive sneaky thief from her parents and (former) friends; that had a happy ending, but it took a while. Or my friend who developed Parkinson's and towards the end would rave violently at his wife, whom he'd always loved.

Humankind is far more various than you think.

 

[syo]

There is no such thing as moral nature. People are neither good nor bad. All people are ''nothings'' that simply ACT. People act. The action doesn't make the person.

 

[stvdv]

A true master who is jalali will reflect a student's tendencies back to the student to awaken.

Such masters are not easy to find - too many have lower motivations that to find a jewel among glass is a real blessing.

True. And even when you find a real Master it's not easy keep up with Him. Giving up bad habits is not the easiest. My goal is high, but I found out that I want to go faster than I can. But it's okay, I enjoy my Quest.

At least there is no Hell Fear when I mess up my goal today. Like Vivekananda said " No problem to fall 1000 times IF you stand up 1001 times"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

From child to adult....often big changes as
the gray organ begins to fire on all cylinders.

But after adulthood, it's actually true that people don't really change very much. An empathetic person, one who really feels the pain and joy of others, will remain such throughout life. A narcisist isn't going to lose interest in himself, and the pedophile isn't going to lose interest in the kiddies.

And for this reason, I think that to change the "moral nature" of a person (as per the OP) would take something quite drastic. I mean really drastic. For a Christian pacifisct to turn into an Islamic militant strikes me as a near impossibility -- there is a lie on one side or the other.

 

[sun rise]

Giving up bad habits is not the easiest.

As I know from personal experience.

Still, what Vivekananda said is something I've heard using other words and believe.

 

[crossfire]

If there is no chance to evolve, then what's the point?

 

[rational experiences]

Rational. A human does not own another humans assessment.

We are equal.

Reason for mind change.

Chemistry. Meaning radiation conversion.

Science knowledge. To convert by alchemical what is natural.

Heavens equal mass X multiple spirits. Gases.

Supports one heavens balanced living....water holy. Generation oxygen holy also

Basic information brain minds should all be the same.

Variations. Teaching Christ. Where you are walking displaced your equal life. Single bodies get sacrificed by science history caused fallout.

Why we know. Natural gas light is held in a vacuum does not fall out.

Holy womb mother space kept life safe

My mother human created my brother and sister equal life taught me my spirituality.

Our father taught occult science our destruction.

I know as a healer study why bad behaviour is expressed. Not only was it inherited...destructive relationship behaviour enhances self destructive behaviour.

Knowing you then try to involve teaching that human how to heal an inherited condition. Not their fault as taught. Your father chose it for you does not make that father correct.

As taught by my holy mother.

 

[Thief]

People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change

so....the Devil is fixed
and you can't help Him

and sinners are born to be sinners.....
no help

 

[Thief]

From child to adult....often big changes as
the gray organ begins to fire on all cylinders.

aahhhhhh.....no

I see grown adults insisting on childlike behavior

 

[Revoltingest]

aahhhhhh.....no

I see grown adults insisting on childlike behavior

I say only that it happens.
Not that it happens to everyone.

 

[rational experiences]

Father said he never invented science after ice age.

Our evolving developed DNA brother adult life from baby did it.

Science a very long time ago before dinosaurs giant life took over posession of human life men origin brothers did it.

What we were taught.

I know it real I had a heard voiced female daughter memory crying over our father begging him not to leave us.

With a quote my brother did it to him.

Origin father male non sexually partnered a long time ago did it

Today subliminal mind sciences possession of self concluded in AI info and answer. Fake. Fake should not come us as brake by the way.

Sexual imaged male female expressed homosexual life recording plus natural male said in science psyche that he now personally owned the female cell...spirit...life body.

Yet he can only ever be a male.

Falsification in mind advice what science a thinker not an observer used in his theories.

Claiming by science strings that a male life born a baby from a female ovary possesed it.

Only human females own an ovary.

Just some of the incidences my holy father and holy mother human explained.

To reason why homosexual male life caused falsified scientific reasoning to a natural aware consciousness.

Behaviour response is involved with belief and science proven wrong when the subject is not before. Human is in history deceased.

Reactive science history in a space.

Not the space but reacts in a caused space.

Father said. You do not own natural history it owns itself.

 

[firedragon]

People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change

I am not an expert in philosophy but I am interested in your topic. I would like to hear from you.

I remember reading in the story of civilisation by will, Ariel and Durant, the Goethe's morality changed through time. He said that he even regretted writing his famous Prometheus. He said "Man grasps only what is to his measure".

I believe that not only an individuals morality but also common morality changes.

I remember vividly watching a fantastic documentary about a rich miner was injured by a splinter that went through his bran. He survived, but through time he became an immoral man. Cutting things short, this was a debate of "is the cup half full or half empty" where did he become an immoral man after his injury to the brain due to the injury itself or the circumstances that arose after the event? Maybe he became irritable, pained, and the wifes tolerance of his complaints diminished through time, and this influenced his morality psychologically. One would not know. But bottomline is, his morality changed. Sorry I cannot remember who this was, so if you like you could dismiss this story. If I do find out who it was I will provide the source.

With anecdotal experience I do also believe that some peoples morality is only exposed now, not that they changed from being a good person to being a bad person. Later you realise they were always immoral, but it was just subdued or it was acting. One guy once told me that he loves when his friend is completely drunk. Because he believed that's when their true morality comes out.

Something like "Ethical relativism" believed that moral standards depend on time and place and thus are subject to change as circumstances change. Even if you consider some cognitive biases, lets say some strands of "racism", association has proven to change this bias. This is a direct link to a change in morality.

What do you think?

 

[McBell]

The method of measure would be the results of a thorough and objective audit of an individual and the life they have lived to assess their character and motoivations, to arrive at a judgment - of the kind that only God can perform, as only he has the necessary perspective - he can take account of a whole lifetime, not just a snapshot of a life taken at one given moment

Although we humans could I am sure somehow come up with our own methods, it just wouldn't be as accurate and objective as God's

But at the end of the day, as a Christian, I still believe in justification by faith alone

But I don't believe that the good people who are not justified by faith go to hell, or are somehow annihilated because that would be unjust and I believe God to be just, so perhaps that makes me some kind of universalist

I have no idea what happens to such people, I can only speculate

You seem to have misunderstood the question.

What is YOUR method of measure.
You most certainly have one.
Otherwise you could not have placed Hitler on one end and Jesus on the other.

 

[Eddi]

You seem to have misunderstood the question.

What is YOUR method of measure.
You most certainly have one.
Otherwise you could not have placed Hitler on one end and Jesus on the other.

By what virtues and/or sins they embody in their actions, character, and motivations - we can tell this by how they treat others and live their lives

 

[McBell]

By what virtues and/or sins they embody in their actions, character, and motivations - we can tell this by how they treat others and live their lives

What standard do you follow to make said judgments?

 

[stvdv]

Still, what Vivekananda said is something I've heard using other words and believe.

I was not sure about the 1001, and maybe the 1000 was 999. But I remember it was important to get up after falling down to achieve your goal