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can a person's moral nature change?

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change
 
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WalterTrull

Godfella
I suppose this response will seem a bit oblique to many, but here goes:
Our nature is good; it has to be. "Thy will be done in earth..." What we view as morality is a snapshot of our current recognition. Uhmm.... in my view, of course.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change
Are you claiming that people are either good or bad and that they are what they are regardless of what they think, believe or how they act?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I think you learn most of your moral compass during childhood; young kids 'snatch' toys off other kids; biting is an aggressive action; kids sulk - most grow out of it and learn reciprocity and the golden rule.

So, yes you can change but like everything it is harder to change when you get older. But not impossible
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change

The problem is the good and bad are subjective ideas. so I do not know what you mean by them. I am assuming you mean the Christian viewpoint.

We know for a fact that people can be influenced by others to do things radically against their nature, as is evident when studying dangerous cults.

If you look into cognitive dissonance, we also see that there are times when peoples actions do not reflect what they wish to do or what they are convinced of, because they have been manipulated to do such things by a social ideology that is overriding their natural will.

So I would disagree with your claims. I think the evidence shows that people can be manipulated or conditioned to act against their base nature. Even the bible says such a thing when it states that humans can be molded to do Satan's will or God's will. (Romans 12:2)

.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Are you claiming that people are either good or bad and that they are what they are regardless of what they think, believe or how they act?
I think that people can think and believe they are good but be a force for evil

I believe people can have good thoughts and still be a force for evil, for instance by being naive

I believe that people can hold worthy, lofty ideals and still be a force for evil

And I believe that a person who acts good can still be a force for evil if they are being good for the wrong reasons and in so doing indirectly serve an evil agenda, in a roundabout way
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
With enough time and will, one can attune one’s subjective morality to any code. However, one’s human nature never changes- the same human nature we all share- and that human nature within all of us is just as terrible as it is beautiful.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
My moral nature has changed
My moral nature has also undergone a change - seemingly

I used to be a scoundrel but I then reformed and became a better person with a much better nature

(But now isn't the time or place to share my testimony)

But the way I see it I always had that better nature, it just didn't shine through and I didn't know it - but I intrinsically had it, deep inside - although it could not be observed and I acted as though my nature was worse than it truly was

When my ways and outlook changed I don't believe that I underwent a change

Instead, I believe my better nature revealed itself and made itself known
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature
Could you please explain this? My first thought was "people are very good in acting and pretending", but you must mean something differently
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
But the way I see it I always had that better nature, it just didn't shine through and I didn't know it - but I intrinsically had it, deep inside - although it could not be observed and I acted as though my nature was worse than it truly was

When my ways and outlook changed I don't believe that I underwent a change

Instead, I believe my better nature revealed itself and made itself known
This I understand.

My Master taught us you are three persons:
1: The one others think you are (mental)
2: The one you think you are (physical)
3: The one you really are (spiritual)

So, if you change, it just means that layers of ignorance are gone.
Like peeling an onion, covering the inside kernel
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
People can behave either goodly or badly - we can usually tell a good person by the good actions they do and a bad person by the bad actions that they do, as well as by examining their motives…

Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

For instance if a person who has always been considered truly good starts being bad that doesn’t mean they have changed, it means they were always bad but had been mis-classified

But for a definitive judgment, we’d have to examine their motivations as well

Claim: We humans can never wilfully act contrary to our moral nature

Claim: And people’s moral nature can never change
Person A has consistently acted "good" and you assume their nature to be good.
One day person A acts "bad".
Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed
So you assume person A to be "bad".

They next day person A acts good.
Claim: if a person starts acting differently that means that they have revealed their true nature, it doesn’t mean they have changed

You see where this is going?
You always assume to know the "true nature" based on a persons last action.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Person A has consistently acted "good" and you assume their nature to be good.
One day person A acts "bad".

So you assume person A to be "bad".

They next day person A acts good.

You see where this is going?
You always assume to know the "true nature" based on a persons last action.
IF this change (bad, good, bad, good) happens a lot THEN you know at least that he is consistent in being inconsistent
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe, but can people wilfully act against their nature? As a free choice?

I don't think they can
I'm sure that religion is to help you and even force you to do exactly this. To take away the deterministic belief that our nature rules us. We have an animal soul and a higher soul and our goal is to satisfy the higher soul and subdue the base one, imo.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I'm sure that religion is to help you and even force you to do exactly this. To take away the deterministic belief that our nature rules us. We have an animal soul and a higher soul and our goal is to satisfy the higher soul and subdue the base one, imo.
Yes, I agree that Religion helps us to motivate to "grow". I call it Self Effort, and this is a very important tool in my life

Sometimes I think that there is predestination, but it can also be lack of Self Effort in the past
Suppose I am addicted to watching movies (or using drugs), and I want to stop this habit
IF I keep watching (using drugs) THEN I might not kick this habit anytime soon

So, the Self Effort needed to stop also depends on the Self Effort in the past:
Suppose that I used drugs for 10 years then it might be hard to stop overnight
Suppose that I already reduced to 25% in the past 10 years then it might be easier to stop overnight
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
You always assume to know the "true nature" based on a persons last action.
Not at all, I believe people can be lead astray from their true nature

But that they cannot willingly change their nature
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I think that people can think and believe they are good but be a force for evil

I believe people can have good thoughts and still be a force for evil, for instance by being naive

I believe that people can hold worthy, lofty ideals and still be a force for evil

And I believe that a person who acts good can still be a force for evil if they are being good for the wrong reasons and in so doing indirectly serve an evil agenda, in a roundabout way
You did not answer my question:
Are you saying that people are what they are and cannot change?
 
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